The Journey of Building Niche Products

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Today I welcome Dan Kulkhoff on the show, so thanks for accepting my invitation.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So Dan if you should resume your path as an entrepreneur in three to five minutes how you

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: will do that?

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, so two years ago I started to build indie products with my wife's VETA and we started

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: with content products because we didn't know how to code, how to use no code tools and our

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: first product was MakerBox. It was just content products around marketing, think, notion checklist,

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_02]: video courses, ebooks and other stuff like this that is basically summarized our experience,

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: our lessons around marketing for other entrepreneurs. So we have been doing this for like a year but

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: we felt stuck, revenue wasn't growing. It was kind of like a red race for us because we

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: were leaving from launch to launch and it wasn't a very sustainable business and at that point

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: of time I think chat GPT was released and I discovered bubble and that was the moment

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that clicked for me and we started to build AI wrappers around marketing too and that's how

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: FounderPel was built and now it's our main business for almost seven, eight months I think

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and now I'm mostly focused on building AI wrappers around marketing. Some of them are free, some

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: of them are paid so yeah that's what I do now and I think I'm a little bit close to marketing

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: topic but I still like to build things. Yeah that will be definitely the main topic on our

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast for sure. There's something I'm missing from I think your past is like you started building

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: indie product with your wife two years ago but you went directly into marketing and for product

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: type of things but what you were doing before that lead you to have this knowledge because

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you need knowledge like many microsize struggling with marketing and you arrived in two years ago

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and you were saying everything. Yeah so I think like if we skip interns jobs at university my first

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: big job was being a chief operational officer in startup we were building kind of platform

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: for interactive online courses and we raised money we increased the team from two people to

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: 60 people that was like a big business and being COO means you kind of are responsible for everything

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think I was the typical founder who kind of avoided marketing and sales most of the time

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and that is mostly the reason why the product died because we didn't grow fast enough we didn't have a

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: sustainable you know foundation of marketing and I think in the last six months of the business

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_02]: this idea just it hit me like I need to do marketing and the last six months was very intense

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I was learning marketing I was doing marketing I was managing sales team marketing team

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think I learned a lot by just doing this for six months you know by trying to save the company

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and for me Maker Box wasn't like let me teach you all I know it was like

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: how can I learn things and along the way create simple products that like summarize my

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: lessons and most like products that we built in the beginning are not in educational format

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: are not like in a way come here and listen to me and I will teach you everything more like

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I saved you time and I have done the research for you so like for example here's directory of

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: 100 marketing ideas I don't guarantee you this will change your business yeah but like

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: this is this is a list of good ideas this is the summary of every idea and how you can approach it

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and here are like resources to learn and it was learning for me and also earning for me

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that's how I discovered content products but biggest reason I didn't know how

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: to do anything I was just good at creating content at some level most educational content

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was like a very I think reasonable approach just to create content products around

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: marketing man that's so that's so interesting and funny like because for an external point of view when

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know you and I see you first like two years ago on Twitter like you start and you come

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: talk about marketing and for me like and I think many other people in the community we think

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you're a freaking genius in marketing here like like so far in front of us because you seems like

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: very understand this is a very important thing and and we have to work on it where you're just walking

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: the path like us and you have struggled like us so first thanks for that I feel less lonely

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: because this is so hard and you always learn it the bad way like it's slap on your face and

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: you're like shit things not working because of that so yeah thanks thanks for that first I can even

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: like double down on this I feel like I'm one of the worst marketers and you know like when I think

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: about my marketing skills I don't think anything extraordinary like I would say that I write

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: copy on average the way I create landing page is on average like most of the skills are on average

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: what probably gives me some edge is like I have multiple marketing skills on average that is really

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: good in combination because you can have the best guy in the landing pages and the best person

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: in marketing copy and like the best personal emails but to be an average in those three skills

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and just be 100 independent when you do these things for your company is very

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think useful and secondly I think for me is I have a very big experience and big angle from being

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: a builder myself and don't just think like just marketing no I I mostly think how you can actually

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: incorporate marketing in building things and that's why I probably mostly talk about marketing

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: strategy not some specific tactics like do these tiktoks or you know send these called emails so

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I don't think of myself as a very good marketer now I think I think you you exactly

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: target the point I didn't I didn't saw but I had the same problem for me you know like for a long

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: period I was doing like instead of indie making I was in the startup startup world

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: now as a CTO I was trying to build my product market around it do like social selling on LinkedIn

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was I was average but average on the myriad of people on LinkedIn you are like no one

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I switched to do like my thing into a more technical context because I am a technical

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: person originally so I couldn't compete in social selling globally but in social selling

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: as a technical person then I was top one super easily and I think this is exactly what you explain

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: like in in the global marketing maybe you're very average but on the marketing for maker like for me

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: your top one or on the on the top you know because you you're doing great and you you're

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: helping on the point you know like many things you read about marketing when you are a maker

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: it's useless you're like I will never do that like it it will take me a week to do this

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: strategy and I have other things to do as well everything what you're giving is like okay it's

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: a quick shot you can do it easily and it makes sense so that make you ingenious in your niche you

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: know and that's very nice thank you I will think a lot of time yeah yeah no I in fact like for me

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that's that's so much what we miss sometime when we build a product even because you are a

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: product as well like when you do social marketing you're basically a product yeah so what we what

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: we miss also often in product is like all product can be very nice or very average let's say to a

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of people but for a few niche we can be very valuable the product can be insane good and if

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you understand this niche then your product is like will make even more money than the generic

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's something we miss because like you know we have this kind of ego we're like

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I want to make something super big but by thinking it's super big it targets no one and

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: it will do nothing well if you think it's super narrow it will make way more money

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: that's true that's true so yeah that's definitely a lesson we have to keep in mind and

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: for makers to listen it's very important yeah okay so that's where you come from that's a very

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting point I think we can go back to few things you have you have started with so you

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: you you you shared the first product you were launching it's it was something very dependent to

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: launch and so you were starting with the make up the name yeah a micro box and so what what

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: where the idea of make up was came from is because you passed experience with your starter

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: when we just first sat down with Sveta and we were like what our first product should be about

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: we had like an ocean page quite literally in which we brainstorm everything we can possibly think

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: of like what is interesting for us what is what sounds reasonable for us and one of the ideas was

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: that you know there are kind of a lot of tools on the internet and it's kind of hard to understand

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: like what is a good tool for you and a lot of tools are expensive and you know when you can use a free

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: tool another a paid tool that will make a difference for your budget and that's why we

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: create decided to create a directory of tools with awesome free plans for makers yeah and

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: that was a very simple idea I think we build the product like it was an air table directory in like

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe three to four days and yeah that was the first product it was very simple it didn't require

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: any authority on the topic because we were not no one on Twitter we didn't have any audience

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was fun to build it was just very easy and simple product and we launched it and made

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: like almost 2k on the first months for us it was a very big signal very good signal because we

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: when we started doing Indian entrepreneurship we said to ourselves it will be great if in six

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: months we can like make a living and you know make some dollars and we didn't expect much

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and in the beginning we were like creating an upwork account just you know to make sure

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: put eggs in different boxes yeah yeah true and it was the first product and then like

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the next product was a list of marketing frameworks I was at that time very interested

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: into these like mental models around marketing and I think I knew a lot of them and it was very

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: natural for me just to you know comply all of this knowledge into just like a directory in notion

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: so yeah and that was the kind of products we created very simple one that save people time

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: give some directions and some clarity and most importantly a very you know no brainer in

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: terms of price because if you create SaaS you know it's a monthly subscription it's $49 per month

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a big commitment but when you see a directory of tools with free plans and it costs you $19

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're like from us from Europe it's it's an old brainer for most of the people

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: so yeah especially in business yeah like should I spend 10 hours searching for tools or

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: should I just buy a directory that does this job for me so yeah that was MakerBox it was honestly

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: just like what is the easiest product we can build that will give us some money there were

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: some ideas on the list that were much more complicated and but I mean even now I wouldn't

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: build them because I'm just not sure I can monetize them yeah yeah for sure this is I mean

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: complex product is like a game you can play maybe if you have like million to burn but

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: most of the time if you're like bootstrapping this is you're not betting into the on the right

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: horse like it can be it can work but this is the odd hour against you so yeah when you're short

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in money it's definitely not the best the best strategy I have a question related to your

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: partner and you like so you you think you you close the previous company and she was working with you

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: or did she also drop her job in saint yeah no yeah she dropped another job and we then joined

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: another jobs but we very very soon realized we don't want to work there so it was like

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: we both lost our jobs we both joined new jobs and we both hated them a little bit and

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: it was a perfect moment to start entrepreneurship I mean at the beginning I was thinking to start

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it myself just as a side hustle but then we like calculated things and it made it made

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: perfect sense to start together it was more fun and I think it has a good synergist in terms of

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: skills so yeah and we started to work on our entrepreneurship like full-time at the two years

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: ago two years ago yeah that's a big bad man like doing that as one person is having balls but like

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: as a co-poll you're not kidding yeah did that that has been like complex in terms of relationship

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: between both of you I don't know how long you've been together before that but like creating a project

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: together do you feel this is like a challenge in plus I believe this question is kind of obvious but

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah we were like maybe four years at that time yeah if now six yeah so like four years

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely a different dynamic and you know it's it's hard for me to say will it work for

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: everyone because you know I know couples in which people have like just absolutely different interests

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and they don't like absolutely interact in terms of like what they do for work we were both in kind

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: of business kind of operations kind of marketing thing so it was easier for us and I think

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: we kind of have the same style we both sucked working with other people and I think that's a

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: very good you know premise to to work and I wouldn't say it was very challenging

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: because for me work is a joy I love working Spetta is also very good because she found

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: tasks that are actually interesting for her I mean obviously it changes how you spend time together

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: because you know you can just sit and stare at laptops it requires some experience you know

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: to because like I can talk about work for example all the time and I think there is some

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: experience to get when you should stop thinking about the work and start like talking about other

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: things because there is always work to be done always work to be discussed and it requires some

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: some skills but I would say working together is one of the best things that happened like in

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: terms of my creator and builder career it's very fulfilling very easy to work and you know

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like at that point of time I'm not sure like in five years I want to work with other people

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: because all of the things that kind of didn't give me joy it was working with other people are now

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely not present and you know I can just enjoy life enjoy life enjoy work but again

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I know some examples of people who try to work together didn't work because they have very

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: different styles yeah so it's not a civil bullet for sure and if some people you know

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: again we don't have kids we don't have mortgage so it was kind of easier for us to just go all in

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: in this journey worst case scenario we would need to find jobs in six months but you know

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: if you have kids if you have mortgage you know you have very different styles I that wouldn't be my

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: first advice to start working together so yeah yeah yeah definitely this is uh against the odds but

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I'm super happy that works for you but for sure if you work with someone you love every day

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and that works this is beautiful and and definitely I've tried I've tried that a bit like four years

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: ago with a previous partner and that was such a mess man I stopped like four after two weeks

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're like maybe it's a bad idea yeah so yeah I totally I totally bet the I understand

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: the the thing this is not a civil bullet at all um I think we like as individuals just to a little

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: bit elaborate on this topic I talked to a lot of people and we kind of all are a little bit the

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: same we think very much of ourselves we just like you know we hate any other piece of opinion we don't

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: want to listen to feedback we just want to you know do our thing without any judgment without

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_02]: any interventions and I think we are like some good parts in it it's definitely about ownership

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: it's definitely about like trying to build something good and not something average

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: there are also a lot of limitations to this most of like I think most of the best ideas that we built

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not built just because one person had this idea it's because one person had an idea the other

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: person gave useful feedback there were some iterations and you know that's a good thing

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: it's hard to go alone and I know a lot of solopreneurs they struggle for being super

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: lonely again working with someone as a two person company helps a lot because you don't feel lonely

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: so I think it's something that I would recommend a lot of people do try to work with someone

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: but it also requires to change your behavior in in things that are not very efficient and there

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: things in every one of us and it teaches you how to give feedback better it teaches you to

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: receive feedback and I know a lot of solopreneurs when I talk to them and they like ask for my

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: feedback you know most of them just can't handle feedback no matter how you know gentle yeah

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah they just can't stand the idea that someone think that their product is not perfect

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and I know a lot of people on Twitter right now if they changed this mindset just one thing

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: one character trait they would start making way more money and again I had a pleasure to

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you know cooperate with some people and change them change this trait in them and I see results

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but a lot of people just you know they're just only me only my ego only my product

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that's very interesting you're saying that because that's what you said a bit at the beginning like

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: you don't want to have like much opinion of people it seems to me everyone has a kind of this ego

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it should be in moderated yeah because like it's very hard for me I had this

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: realization so I was like you I was in a startup I quit the startup basically because I was pissed

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: of working with people and and these people I was working with I love them personally like

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I love them as a person but working with them I don't know I start to hate them at one point you

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: know like I don't know and and I realized I don't want to work with anyone else

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and at one point I started to have kind of people working for me because the way I work

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: an open source in Capgo that bring people to work with me and now I have an intern

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was kind of having a discussion with people about like yes sometimes I have too much work on

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: certain things like I have like bugs or whatever and I want also to do marketing and also stuff

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and I can't and this person was like why you why are you not making a team like this is very

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: obvious things and I was like no fuck off team I don't want him and then I realized this

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: is just because before I was a co-founder and I had no 100% ownership on what I was going to

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: hire and and how and now I can see like because I have this control I can maybe find people who are

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: like me like my intern is very very like me in many things so I enjoy working with him

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: he's annoying me sometimes but in a way he mostly I enjoy working with him because

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I can drive him the way I want and he's always already a lot like me so I think this is a bit

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like what you have with your partner like many people you cannot work with but certain

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: people you can very work with them yeah yeah yeah hard to find that's true and so I so yeah you

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you say like basically you don't see yourself like growing the team anyway in like a five five years

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it's I think I'm very open minded on this it's not like you know oh I hate teams I hate VC

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: investments and you know I'm 100% bootstrapped till the death like obviously when if there is an

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: opportunity okay let's talk about us now yeah so I think it's when it's reasonable it might make

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: sense to consider hiring people but the biggest mistake I made in my first business was hiring

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: people without a good reason to hire them you know it was yes kind of yes just an ego thing that we

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of programmed from I don't know where but like we think that the bigger the team the

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: better the cooler and you know that's that's what I will do I will hire more people and

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a cool thing but then you see the work it starts to be slower and slower fewer results people

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: conflict more than before and right now I think like what can I hire for and right now just don't see

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_02]: problem to be solved and unless I see a very good problem I don't want to hire people I definitely

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: can't consider working with contractors we actually try to work with a TikTok contractor it didn't

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: end up well but I think it was mostly you know maybe not the best judgment from us and not the

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: best communication from us like how we set up our work but I'm very big on like before

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: hiring someone before you know outsourcing do the thing yourself become you know at least a little bit

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: not the expert but a little bit know something about the topic and then you can hire so you

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: want to do SEO okay do the SEO first for six months and you will understand the limitations of your

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_02]: approach you will understand what is missing if you just go and hire a SEO agency and just say

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: okay do SEO they will bullshit you maybe not intentionally but like the results will be definitely

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: slower than you do and then hire so I try to do as many things myself right now and the things that

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like I delegate to Sveto Sveto delegates to me it goes both way for example like just to

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: give you an example I do customer support and I see a lot of people saying you know

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: you should outsource customer support after a certain revenue point I don't feel the need I have

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: like maybe you know let's say five emails per day like that I actually meaningful I need to respond

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: to them why would I spend hours you know educating customer support agents setting up the process

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: managing care of him and doing all of this when I can just reply to these emails and think how can

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I improve my product to get fewer emails like this so maybe if I will get 50 emails per day and there

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_02]: is like no way to optimize that's a good idea to hire a person but for now I think we are

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: still very early still very small business and I don't see any to hire anyone but I definitely

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: don't want to raise money I think if if hiring is like you know let's see but raising money I think

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that's you know kind of not for me because I am very against this idea of growth at all cost

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you know let's just go let's just grow let's just send those marketing emails every four hours

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: let's just grow so I think this is something I experienced and that was one of the worst part

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_02]: of building a startup you need to increase the numbers for some reason every month

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: like every month you should be better you need to be better and you know

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree with that but I don't agree to do it at an extreme level like you do in startup

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: like you cannot breathe in startup like it's not reasonable like

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but I believe because the startup mindset is really like go big or go home so they are no middle way

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: where I was saying that with Nico a few days ago like on the podcast it's like for me

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_00]: because of bootstrapping we will have more and more business we serve tiny niche

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and many users will be have better experience in their life because this tiny product I just

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: targetting them and don't try to make like a milliard with it just like make good money

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's very nice for the makers that's very nice for the users everyone is happy

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: you don't need to put a VC in the middle who wants like to extend or exterey

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah yeah yeah yeah that's true

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I think you're on the I wanted to return on the topic of support because like for me

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: in the first startup I was working on we directly hire someone doing support like very

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: very quickly and then we started to like try to grow the product focus on marketing blah blah

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: stuff and after six months the guy was like I cannot I will quit it's too much work

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you were going too fast it was super angry users were angry because something was not

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: working and he was in his bubble and so because he was the son of the CEO

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: the CEO say okay we need to help my son and everyone will do one day of support by months

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: something like that to give him a bit of a air to breathe first day I went to do support

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of coding after five minutes I saw he was doing like thousand of time the same

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: fucking task and if we could have takes five minutes to look at the product and look at what

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: he was doing we will see like why he's doing that this is useless the product can do it for him

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and like he was like I think he was saturated at 1000 users by day so not everyone has a problem

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but it was 1000 delivery kind of by day and he was like maximum for him I did one day support

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_00]: next day I did coding it was that 10,000 capability by day he like extend his number

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and he was like super easy now 10,000 easy before 1000 he was dying and I was like

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: so for me I don't want to delegate the support we have to as founders to receive these messages because

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: we will see the frustration of users and improve their experience and make everything easier it's

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: better to make your tool or you know change the color of a button or something because they

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: don't see it down to pay someone at support to do it for them it's and the person in

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: support is not often like his job is to do support so he will not tell you how to kill his job basically

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: so you will just have more support people like if you ask you ask the person at support

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: he'll say oh how can you help you better I say bring a second person it's not like kill the bugs

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: or stuff like that so and you know like especially problematic I think with approach like oh we

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: should outsource as soon as possible I think it's it's it's the mindset problem when people say that

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_02]: they kind of imply or you need to be focused on you know coding you need to be focused on building

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the product but like um replying to your customers is part of the business it's it's not like

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you know a thing that you should avoid no people pay for the product you know you build the product

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you kind of are responsible for talking to the customers it's not a thing you need to

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02]: super optimize no it's okay to reply to your customer emails I do you know I read like

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of tips on Twitter or never open like customer support before like lunch

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: deep work session and then open no I open the first thing in the morning I like wake up

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and yeah I see emails I want to help people like why would a person wait for five more hours

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_02]: to solve the bug when I can solve it right away it won't impact my productivity if it impacts

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: my productivity then it's probably the bigger issue for today and it's a good focus for today

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_02]: so I don't know I just I think that's very different like that's why I'm different from a lot of people

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: in IndioHacka community I'm not a developer from like from the past and building the product

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_02]: shipping features becoming day by day yeah it's not it's not my number one goal of the

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: day my number one goal is to make money that day and you know to increase revenue to make

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: happy customers and customer support is definitely in top three of that day I totally agree with you

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_00]: man like I had this debate with my intern like this morning I think he was like okay what's the

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: next feature we should build he said dude look the users in the discord and look what they

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: are struggling with that's what you're gonna fix that's how we're gonna make good money

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: to make them satisfied not by doing new features and he's like no yeah it's developer but yeah I

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_00]: don't understand why as a developer I mean I mean I understand because this is way more

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: funny to build like a feature than to fix a bug or like make a client more happy because

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: well yeah that that's something a bit but coming back to the topic of you said something

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I find now it's even more true about you said you it's better to know the task before delegating it

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think they are very very good example of that now he's like try to ask charge epiti

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: to do something you never done before the result the result it will be shit probably because it

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't understand exactly what's the expectation of you and your context so you and you're not able

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to shape the context properly because you don't know what you talk about so then the result will be

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: very approximative I and I see that in coding when I ask something for example in a code I don't

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: understand and you know language I don't understand the result is like doesn't make any sense and

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_00]: then I did some research and asked better the question and then you have a good answer

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think this is the same with hiring people if you can hire people only if you have a good

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: question to them to resolve you know otherwise you just like do shit with it yeah absolutely I think

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: if you go and hire someone to for example you know do SEO again and they just come and say okay

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: let's you know write blog post articles about that topic or you know let's optimize page speed report

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean that's very cool but like if you have been doing SEO for the first three months and you already

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_02]: know the impact of those decisions you know you will see that oh you know it's not very good

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think also it's setting up the right expectations a lot of people hire others

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02]: hire agencies hire freelancers and they have something like a very delusional goal in mind

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and when you previously have done it you will have a much more reasonable goal you will be happy

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you will be calmer you will not feel like other person is bullshitting you so again that's why

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what I say about the problem is you bullshit yourself in fact and then you ask someone to

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: try to bullshit you the way you want but then doesn't work yeah man that's very true yeah so

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that's what I advise too is marketing when you just have your product you know and you're like

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: unsure what marketing to do do some marketing first don't go and get a coach don't buy a course

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: don't don't do any of these just go and do some marketing and you will see what are the problems

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: okay maybe your problem is you can't get traffic okay now you have a specific problem to solve

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: there are like multiple solutions to this or maybe your landing page is shit okay again solve

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_02]: this problem when you just try to get like I want to learn the whole topic no it doesn't work like

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: this any expert that is promising you to you know to teach you all the topic it's if they will give

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02]: very high level stuff that won't help you a lot so that's my tip I think maybe in some

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: in some cases it's better to delegate for example like when I was you know like let's say opening a

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: company I will go and consult with an advisor because the like possible consequences of making

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: a bad decision there is much much higher than just like by posting a blog post article that

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: doesn't get any views so you know obviously there are use cases but when we talk about marketing

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_02]: design product development support it's usually good to do things on your own understand your

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: limitations and then find a way to optimize but most of the time you will see that you don't

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02]: need to optimize anything if you get five emails per day cool answer five emails per day

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah but you know you you did you you said something very funny like about like for admin

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: stuff for creating your company you will consult someone and lately I've opened a company because

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm creating an eco village in Madeira and we fully delegated to a company this to create the

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_00]: company because we want what we want is like we have to have some associate and stuff like

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that so we say okay set up the company first we pay we have the money you set up and we didn't look at

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: it we fully delegate and they did something bad because they didn't knew what we wanted we wanted

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to augment the capital every often and the model they choose is not made for that so they say oh if

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you want to do that we have to change the company and repay everything again so even for that

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe you have to do your own research because you are not capable to communicate

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: exactly what you have in your mind so if you don't do research and bring some

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: some material already on on the conversation then the person will not understand it will just go

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: to the things he knows for example or the latest topic he's seen or the latest things he's seen

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: should be cool to do and he will totally forget about your need because it's very hard to know

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: what you're in your mind unless he is very good at asking questions but not everyone is

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: it's better to do your own research I believe even for that topic yeah and that's why I'm usually

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: more pro like get a consultancy call instead of hiring an agency you know a consultancy call will

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_02]: will cost you a few hundred dollars in almost all industries you will have 30 to 60 minutes to

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_02]: ask everything you have it will push you to do some research before the call it will push you

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: to connect the dot and you know it will give you more time to think about this when you just hire

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: an agency like just okay guys just do whatever you do and yeah do one chip then I pay yeah yeah

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_02]: you ask 100 entrepreneurs they will say the magic will very often be uh you know not correct

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02]: so yeah I definitely don't want to hire agencies I think agency is a very good thing to sell

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: if you are looking to make some money and become profitable but you know as a consumer I think

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: agencies are like not the very efficient way to solve problems yeah yeah for sure for sure

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: unless you have like a problem you have often and then it's very easy to you have really

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: a good overview of what you need and then an agency can do it for you yeah but yes unless that

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that doesn't make much sense but yeah you have you have bring a topic on the table like

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: also because like we're talking about the consultancy and the way you can start your

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: marketing but there are another way to start your marketing another way I know because of you

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: which is your product so we should talk about funderpal which is funderpal

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah so funderpal is and I would say AI marketing platform for solopreneurs we mostly build tools

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that save you time doing marketing so for example instead of you know

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02]: brainstorming and spending two hours what marketing ideas you can do you can just click a button get a

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: very good result with your context and just go into this idea and I think this is what we have like

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: a philosophy of this platform right now we have one big paid product is a marketing

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_02]: strategy generator which is all about like high level stuff in what direction you should do your

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: marketing and we're building a new paid product I hope it will be out yeah yeah yeah it will it

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: will be launched will be successful but for now I don't want to talk about this and yeah

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: we mostly create this and just to probably give some ideas like why is it happening why can I

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: just go to chat gpt annual all of these I think a few good reasons first most marketing

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_02]: platforms they are built for you know VC backed companies big corporations and they just don't

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_02]: think about these like small one person businesses which have a very different approach to marketing

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02]: if you just like like you have a solopreneur with a to-do app and their marketing strategy

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_02]: will be very different from a to-do app that raised like five million dollars and I think that's

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_02]: difference not a lot of platforms have in mind we have in mind and secondly I think

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of marketing platforms in my opinion they just you know they just do the job just like you

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: know the cheapest the cheapest way possible yeah so like okay you need something about marketing

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: strategy here is like I don't lean canvas for you here is like SWOT analysis yeah and it's so outdated

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: in a way yeah you know like they will rather optimize for a very short prompt so they have

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: less costs than giving you a better result and I don't like that and I like building what like

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: is valuable for me and I think we just try to put more personal touch in every tool that we build

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know just do it differently yeah so yeah yes also I think you find very good hack because

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_00]: like when you you ask the your so I am a client of your tool of course and when you ask your tool

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: for example like to evaluate your landing page is like you know I think most of makers will be

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_00]: angry like if you were you done saying like you landing page is shit but if it's a tool saying that

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you kind of love for it you're like yeah okay you know it's it's way more way more received and

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_00]: something I like in what you've done is you know I could use charge epity to ask things of marketing

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and I do it already but the problem is like as we said earlier I'm not so much an expert

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: marketing so I'm not I don't know what I'm asking properly and in your tool I'm guided with clear

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: question that make me think I don't know my client that make me think I don't have a nice niche

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: many things I realize just with the question already I'm doing wrong but that's helping to

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: think through it and thanks to this question you will ask the right thing the right thing to the

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: IA and the answer is very very qualitative like I was super impressed by the quality I've showed

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_00]: to many people around me it's like what dude it's so good because because you know what is important

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_00]: marketing and isn't so then he makes you shape the IA the right way you know the wrapper the quality

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_00]: is how you wrap it you wrap it it's like charge epity it's like what you do with it and that's

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_00]: very good and that's helped me to understand many things in marketing because that's how also

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: show people who don't understand marketing how you think about marketing it's kind of a dump

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00]: in your brain in a certain way and I think this is very helpful for this reason the tool so if you

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_00]: don't buy it didn't buy it now I don't know what to say buy it yeah so yeah that's a good marketing

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that's for sure a good marketing so I think people mostly buy our products like hire us for

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_02]: this job they just don't want to spend hours writing their prompts so they would rather pay

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_02]: $100 so I will write 2,000 word prompts and they just can click a button I think a lot of people

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was saying this for like six months probably people just would rather click buttons

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_02]: than chat with AI because clicking button requires zero thinking you just click a button okay you

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02]: can choose some drop downs you know it's very easy but when you chat with AI you need so it's

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02]: running crazy right man man I think that's like it's like I'm in my day right now yeah

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_02]: are you in the shower? yeah yeah so like if that's a last recording you know what's happened

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_00]: is it okay with quality or should we post? yeah honestly I'm scared you're gonna die

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it's crazy I hope this building is okay but yeah so yeah continue so it's much easier to just

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_02]: click a button then think of the question think of criteria think of formatting just writing is much

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_02]: more harder for an average population than clicking the button and that's what we do and I think that's

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_02]: for a good good sake on like what AI rappers you can build this client in which it's easier to

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_02]: click a button than to write a big prompt and that's it you don't need anything else just write

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_02]: good prompts make UI more more friendly than chat GPC which is not very hard and yeah that's it

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah okay man thanks I don't know if everyone will hear what you said but thanks for that

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_00]: this is getting crazy it's insane I think we can continue on my other questions if I managed to

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_02]: hear you I think I shouldn't be mic I hope it's a little bit better but I'm not sure

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_00]: ah he seems who better or did he stop or it's better I think I just fixed a little bit

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_02]: or maybe I'm just you know already like in the ocean uh swimming yes you the the one it's okay

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_00]: the house is underwater already you're saying oh god that was intense um okay thanks a lot for the

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_00]: expectation the explanation of funder paul um I would like to know uh what's the the business

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_00]: model of funder paul like how do you because I know you change from uh the macabox to funder paul

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_00]: you change the the the model so what what are you changed now and how it's working so just to

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_02]: explain we have a market generator in this product people create marketing strategies for their

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02]: products so think of like there is like a marketing strategy for product x products y product z and

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_02]: we mostly sell you know one time payment access to like generate this strategy and we sell either you

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: have an opportunity to create one marketing strategy or unlimited marketing strategies

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_02]: we started to sell it as a lifetime deal so it was like you know you have these credits forever

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and everything and that helped us to get some traction in the beginning but uh now we switch

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to like one year annual pass so it's like for 12 months in 12 months you can't generate new

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_02]: strategies but you have access to the one you generated which I think is a fair deal and

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah we sell one time payment so I think it would help to think of it as an annual subscription

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: without a recurring part so we only sell annual accesses they just don't

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: require automatically in one year so yeah yeah okay yeah that's that's very interesting because I

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_00]: thought like the the way you do it was very nice but it could lead you to at one point

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_00]: inverse the cost and the revenue because like the IA stuff but yeah one year is like

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_00]: very perfect because like it's enough for people to try it on to use it and and if you still

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_02]: keep the strategy you have done yeah yeah and also open AI hopefully only decreases the price of the

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: API which is very nice I mean I hope it won't suddenly start increasing them so that's very good

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you know a lot of people are scared of selling one time payments in AI products but I think like

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: my tip would be first calculate your costs a lot of times people overestimate how expensive each run

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02]: of their product is like we have huge prompts like huge like six seven thousand tokens for this

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and we have a pretty large results but it's still I wouldn't say very expensive I wouldn't say it's

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02]: cheap but like it's not it's not the cost when I look at this my heart stops no and

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_02]: yes a lot of people in that way think oh I need to charge subscription I need to give limits but like

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe but maybe start with a simpler monetization model you can always add limits later you can

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_02]: always introduce soft limits that won't impact 99% of users and they won't bother about this

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but maybe start with a simple monetization strategy and you will see a lot of things

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that you have in mind that you were scared are not really true and you can survive with

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_00]: one time payments and all of this yeah that makes sense can you share like how much like in

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Russia for example your your costs represent compared to your revenue you're like close to a

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_02]: SaaS in a way I can definitely share costs so open AI again luckily introduced GPT

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02]: for all this month and it's decreased our API cost significantly I would say that like next month

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_02]: we is like significant chunk of new customers and we have a free demo in which people can generate

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_02]: part of the strategy for free so that's like the significant cost for us because people can try

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02]: the platform for free and then upgrade it's not the full strategy but like the first part but

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it's still it's just costs and we give GPT for all for them and not just GPT 3.5 I would say

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_02]: it will be less than 250 dollars I would expect 300 dollars is max I don't think it will go further

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and just to give again the sense of revenue at the same time I would expect the product

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to reach like 15k of revenue so it's not really super high so it's not like it's not nothing

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's it's it's it's a few sales and the costs are covered yeah yeah I have like four

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_00]: thousand revenue and I have the same cost so you're definitely doing good that's that's very nice

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_00]: okay thanks for sharing that I know like not everyone is sharing like numbers and

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: when we have numbers is I think the most the most insightful for people to understand like what they

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: they can do like because you're making very good revenue and you are selling like one time payments

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_00]: so this is one of the proof again like you don't need to charge monthly if your costs are not so

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_00]: high or if you want to get it started but just even like thinking about as a technical side

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_00]: like making recurrent revenue it's super hard I mean there are many templates like you can get the

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_00]: template of mark for doing it for you but if you're not starting with a template then it will take

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you kind of time even on bubble or any platform to the recurrent revenue handling because you

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: need to handle cancellation and everything if you do one time is just you put a fucking click or

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: stripe and then you redirect people to a page you didn't put the URL publicly and that's it

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_00]: it works you can yeah you're done on payment and next next problem so yeah that's that's can you help

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00]: you a lot to prove yourself and what you're building that this makes sense because if people pay for one

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_00]: time then you know this is not bullshit what you're building because that's what mostly we do

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_02]: when we not validate the idea correctly yeah again to just clarify about the costs so obviously

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_02]: open AI is not the only cost we have it's one of the three the most significant costs for

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: founder parent for our business in general the other two is convert kit for email marketing

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and Xano for our back end so we use not bubbles back end but a separate no code back end which

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: is called Xano which is super great and I love it but it's also significant cost and we have more

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_02]: obviously tools but that's like these three tools are three digits let's say you're back

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_00]: end no code developer now man thanks to to no good tools that's amazing yeah sometimes sometimes I

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_02]: wouldn't write some JavaScript so you know it's with tragedy obviously oh yeah yeah of course of

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_00]: course you know like funnily yesterday or this weekend I had a friend he was like oh I have

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_00]: this project I want to make for the community I'm working on and and like we got some codes but it

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_00]: was super expensive I'm sure I can do these things like do MVP in charge of t and I was like yeah I

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_00]: think I think you can do it because he knew he knew to code like he was coding before and then

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_00]: he went to project management so I was like yeah with the basic of what you know you can make it

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and he started and yesterday he started to tell like I have already some results the thing start

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to work he spent just one day enough on it and he has like the base if you if you're not like

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_00]: overthinking and make very simple tasks to give to the IA you can really like do pretty good like

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I think now most of my work is just teaching GPT to to do what I want most than coding it

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and I am a developer you know so I am changing the world unfortunately you can't really use

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of AI in no code like but you can definitely help to resolve issues like when you are stuck but

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I still mainly need to drag and drop stuff yeah yeah like if you're building in bubble definitely

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_00]: this is a limitation in a way that's funny because you have the most easy tool but then that's the

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: less easy to to debug with IA maybe you can send with the new charge gpt for mac maybe you

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_00]: can screenshot and help I don't know how it will work but yeah definitely for now you're kind of

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_00]: going for the old way while when you code you can debug but you you have also access to

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_00]: JavaScript and other things so yeah true I think for me no code is is kind of an enabler

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_00]: so big for makers even you know me or mark or whatever like makers we kind of use also

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_00]: tools no so it's not much no code it will be like solution you call low code yeah for example

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of using a database like postgrade my SQL and stuff you have to handle yourself and then

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_00]: you do a backend yourself blah blah blah and you spend hours doing shit which is useless I use

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_00]: one company named superbase where you directly can connect to the database without doing the

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: backend and that's magic and many developers are like oh this is so bad and I'm like I don't fucking

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_00]: care I don't care so bad I like I have no fucking backend man and I'm handling million

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_00]: enough users a day it's like whoa what are you talking about like yeah do your database yourself

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_02]: hey yeah I think about no code kind of this way I mean in two years I definitely

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_02]: learned some JavaScript and you know start coding the products but for me when I think about this

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_02]: the key question is why do I want to do this do I want just to play status games and feel like

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just a part of some social group and or is there a problem that can't be solved with no code

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_02]: because at this point of time I feel myself very comfortable at bubble I can ship really fast like

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_02]: six one year ago I was like a total newbie now I can iterate really fast I can solve problems

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_02]: really fast and I'm building fairly simple tools so Thunderpile the key work is writing prompts

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_02]: in Apple notes and designing good UI in Figma everything else is fairly simple it's not

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_02]: very simple there is backend work and you know like some database stuff but like it's fairly simple

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_02]: why would I go and spend like let's say two to three months to learn basics of coding redo the

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_02]: product there it's just waste of time when I can just go and build a product product in bubble

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and people say oh you you pay 32 dollars per month for bubble whatever but like the cost

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_02]: of me learning coding and not doing any marketing not shipping anything will be much higher so

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_02]: at some point of life I think I will learn coding if I have a product idea which can only be built

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: in you know like in coding environment but still I don't think that's like this year or next

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: year right now I want to build simple tools you know simple tools so I can enjoy more interesting

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: sides of life and business you know if you don't do it in the next three months I don't believe you

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: will need this skill ever I think we're going so fast in IE stuff and no code in stuff like

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that will be that will be useless like for you will have other ways it feels like you know

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_02]: a regex so like even like six years ago when I was in university taking like you know data science

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: minor I was like okay here is like regex thing to find a special text in your text okay and

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: some people they were like studying how to write regex and I was like one of these people I was like

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: oh so you use like this symbol for this point yeah nobody nobody thinks about this they just go

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_02]: to charge gpt or google you know there is like a really good website for regex they just go

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and solve the problem you know every time it happens so maybe this will be the case

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: for simple tools also like you just go and use a tools to generate simple tools maybe for more

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: complicated tools it will be different there will be like hardcore coding but again the question is

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: do I want to build those complicated tools or do I want to build simpler tools you know

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and for now I prefer to build simple businesses yeah no I totally I totally agree with that

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and funnily one of the two the two main pain points in my life of developer have been using

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: database and SQL and doing regex and now both of them are done by charge gpt I'm like yeah do it my

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: friend I test and I it doesn't work okay do it again that's the message

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that's that's something very very neat definitely and I'm super happy charge gpt

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_00]: exists I will be very sad if charge gpt stopped to exist and I have to do regex myself again

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah that's that's a lot of productivity for everyone in the world

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah when I started to work with my intern he was not using I was like no that's

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I will put you all the tools and use them man like otherwise you're useless you're losing time

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: there also I think you were saying something about like currently and what you could do in

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: the future but for me it's like peter level you know he become kind of a meme that he was doing

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: everything in one fight in PHP super dirty broken I think for you and I already told you that this

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: is kind of a marketing strategy to say fuck off I'm not coding you know and I'm making more money

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: than you you know I think this is something that can like be your yeah make you grow even

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: faster because like you have something people can hate you for which is super easy and most of the

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: developer will but in fact what you're doing and what you sell about marketing is very variable for

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: them so they will hate you but love you in the same time you know it's like fuck him but okay I'm

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: buying you shit yeah yeah you know it's like as you said like a thing with super base maybe in

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: theory in 001% of cases that's actually a very bad idea to use super base for this product or you know

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: to have everything in one PHP file or have a one database with every piece of content and again

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the rare cases in which is true for example for Marxist generator we have a lot of databases

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and some people and I think peter levels does that he has like one database you know just one

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: database just like everything you know again the correct mindset is to try to do the job

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: as simple as possible every time if you can do as a solopreneur simple do it simple because we

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: don't have like the team leverage so we can't have a very big task done in an in an efficient

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: way every time we do something we need to find the leverage okay your leverage is that you will do

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: everything in one database and this will increase your speed of shipping by like 50% cool maybe that's

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: a good idea maybe you use no codes low code tool for backend again increases your speed cool great

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's a good mindset I think this is something I experienced with smooth recently so

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: just for context we built an internal tool which is called smooth for ourselves to deliver access

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: to files because people were buying maker box products on lemon squeezy on stripe they were

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of lost in the process and we thought like we can have a better tool to deliver access to

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: files and we built it and first of all it was mainly for us and then we decided to launch it

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: publicly and I think that was like my first proper SAS you know no AI and that was the moment when

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: like thinking backwards when I started to over engineer things I started to say oh we need to

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: cover these edge case it's very important we can't launch with it and again like obviously it's

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: very clear right now that we didn't need to cover any of those edge cases we needed to launch like

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: as soon as possible and iterate and not to over engineer the products and not to you know not to

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: make a security your number one priority before you have like one paying customer maybe you have

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: like an okay security and then you have a paying customers and maybe then at some point of time

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you improve your security so I think always remembering solopreneurs to keep things simple

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: is a very good thing it's not always the case sometimes you can use this shortcut sometimes

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you can't but like that's a very good north star when building products I totally agree mate

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm also very happy to see like more you're getting technical more you're doing the same mistake as us

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: it's reassuring I feel less damn

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: things for that okay so now I think we can go a bit to my question about the future so earlier

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: you were talking about a project you're building you don't want to talk about just to give you context

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: this podcast we probably get out in one month so if you want to talk about something because if

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: you believe it will be released in one month you can and otherwise what are you like what are

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the next step right now what are you working on and what are you trying to optimize right now

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah so I think we were we were building smooths to make it public launch for maybe a month and a

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: half something like this and when we launched this like I think on the next day we launched this

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I realized I don't really want to work on two sars at one time like found a pattern smooth and

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was building it I had so much excitement and then I shifted and I realized I don't really

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: want to touch it I don't want to fix it I don't want to ship probably I mean we've done some things

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: we went to user interviews that didn't end up really well we didn't get good you know validation

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: on here and on that very moment I like it just hit me I need to focus on founderpal I need I don't

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: need to try to get the second product profitable I just need I have a winning product right now

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a product that generates most of my income I need to focus on it and I think

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: before five months I was very hesitant should I do it or shouldn't but now I'm very clear

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I need to just grow founderpal to like 20 30 40k whatever so my number one goal this year is to make

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: founderpal double triple its revenue so right now it's let's say from 10k to hopefully 15k

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: something like this this is like the founderpal right now and whatever yeah I want to happen like

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: 20 really soon but hopefully by the end of this year usually September October November are very

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: hot months something closer to 30k and that's my number one focus I don't want to build anything

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: else I don't want to start new SaaS I just want to grow existing product that you know survived the

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: validation period how will I do this that's a good question so I think first of all I want to

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: launch a second paid product that will use subscriptions because like it's it's more recurring

[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: usage and I'm doing it for around content creation and as so let's say right now

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm building it like I was building it before the podcast so we're building it we're using it

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: internally we're trying to make it better and then launching to people I'm very very very

[01:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: cautious here not to make the same mistakes with smooth so I try to you know I try to think

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: okay how can I make it simpler okay how can I launch faster so I think I hope I hope I can

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: do this and not over engineer again but then it's just marketing so I think let's make a challenge

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to release it before the release the podcast it's a it's a race wow wow I yeah let's

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: see let's see that's that's a good that's a good deadline I hope you will need some time a few

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: months to release that podcast you know I can over engineer at that time so now I will start the

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: to contact the guy on Fiverr to do the editing of three podcasts so he will do the editing of

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: three podcasts and then I will start to release every week so he will probably take four weeks

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: so you have four more weeks okay okay I hope the fever guy will add some some ocean and

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: you know ships when the rain was really strong so yes so my take is I want to build a second

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_02]: paid product which will act like an upsell in fund the power of fun the point yeah yeah and then

[01:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: just do a lot of marketing out of new marketing that I haven't done before so for example I have

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: never done like you know marketing landing pages for different keyboards so let's say you have

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: marked instead of generator what you can do you can have 10 landing pages like marketing strategy

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: for agencies or marketing strategy for mobile apps and they will be like a simpler version of your

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: landing page with like keyboard and unique video unique text I have never done it I want to do

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to try it because I talked to some people I talked to Tim from Pali and he said like it's a

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: good thing and I think Tim is very inspirational in terms of SEO so I am glad he existed he

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: exists just casually killed what have you done to him oh no so second thing I want to do I want to

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: try to build more interesting free tools for now I was shipping kind of similar free AI wrappers

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: so most of them like describe your product describe your audience and get a business plan for example

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to do something more challenging for example create a directory of some marketing ideas let's say

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and see how it goes so that's a big SEO push this year let's see how other things going

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Nico is definitely pushing me to try Facebook ads and maybe he will succeed but like

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: if I had he just he just wants more tweets about his Facebook expertise so and that's understandable

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: so to summarize one more paid product but I think that's it because two products okay you know

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is something good enough to focus on build features and then just do a lot of marketing

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: in SEO probably and it's an upsell an upsell of your current product so it's in the same galaxy

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah question related to that because like you said okay now you're trying to build it and then

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in one or a certain period you release it and try to make it pay why you didn't go to the way

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: like I make a landing and I show to my current user a pay button and they pay and they know they

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_02]: prebook the thing or you don't pre-sell and I was doing a lot of pre-sales in early days of

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: MakerBox when we were just like about to launch digital product I think about pre-sale there are

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: like a few things to consider first if your product is one time payment okay cool you can like

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: probably you know very easily organize the whole pre-sale thing when it's a subscription

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a little bit harder what do you what do you pre-sale is it like an annual subscription but if

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: your product costs let's say 50 per month the annual will be let's say 500 per month even with the

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: discount it still will be like 200 300 dollars it's not a no-brainer price for a you know for

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: early birth when all you are shown is just a video of something most important yeah but also

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: they have the trust of you already you know you will do it to people who know you that's true but

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: like I think the second more importantly is why do you need validation like some people like if

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I get no sales will I not build this product or I will build it anyway so like am I not sure

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I'm 100% sure I want to build this product because I want to use it in my business and

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you are this kind of dog footing so it's good yeah so and I think the reason

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: interest outside of this because people requested this in the product people outside requested

[01:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: this and I see a clear problem I don't need validation because it won't change my decision

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I will build it anyway yeah it's useful yeah and that's what I don't do and I don't like

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like this idea of just you know kind of using your audience you know like oh here is

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: just landing page I don't have anything here is just like a buy button you know you trust me

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of want a little bit more

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I want people to feel more comfortable paying me money so they don't pay and think what if

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: these guys scam us what if this guy delivers a shit version I want to build something good

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: show them show to them and say like look this is this is good you think it's good

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: it's time to pay money and they feel comfortable paying the money then just you know promising them

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: something good so that's why I don't do validation again I'm not sure how much time will I need to

[01:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: refine the product but let's see it I will definitely do a lot of things with my audience I will

[01:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: ask them for better tests but like that's different I built something and I want to get

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: feedback to make it better because like yeah it is useful I just wanted to make more useful and

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: more convenient but for now I'm not looking to you know is it something people need or not I think

[01:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm prettier um you know it's it's also a big difference how much do you know your audience

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: when you're just getting started do yeah do it's more important yeah do better tests when you

[01:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: don't know anything about your audience you don't know what language to use how what design to use

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: do it every landing page of maker box in the first year was uh roasted by people every time we

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: built something two weeks before the launch with we would say on twitter okay so here is

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: an opportunity to destroy our landing page you know reply and I will DM you the link

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: every time and people replied and we get feedback at some at some at one point we stopped getting

[01:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: new useful feedback because we learned everything new and you know of course some people will still

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: say some bad things but if that's a one person out of ten who mentions these things it's just

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: a personal opinion in the beginning of course like ten people would say you know

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: your pricing sucks you know okay your hero block sucks okay let's remake this so at found the

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_02]: pale I feel comfortable right now building things without doing a lot of you know asking for permission

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: from customers but I definitely try to get ideas from them give them products to give them

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: features to iterate I think this product because it's a new territory for me I will do a lot of

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: bad tests but not validation no yeah okay clear thanks for that that that makes a lot of sense

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: because I believe like um there's something we miss sometimes it's like methods work for a moment

[01:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: in the life of a project or an entrepreneur but not always like if you are in the niche already

[01:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: like for a long like doing validation would make me give you some insight but it's not the best way

[01:19:45] [SPEAKER_00]: anymore to get insights and because you have contact to people you can do differently doing the beta

[01:19:51] [SPEAKER_00]: for example it's a better way to have insights because you already know things about them so

[01:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you just need to validate the the end form not the starting form in a way so it's better

[01:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: it's better the better in that way I think that I know is Nico when she was like thinking

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: about building his first digital product which was a course about facebook obviously yeah we were in

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the group chat and he was like super hesitant I remember he was like oh I don't think anyone needs

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: these like me and Mark we kind of pushed him to do this so like maybe he had this idea he wanted

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: to do but he was super hesitant to actually do that because he was thinking like oh you know maybe

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: indie hackers don't care about facebook ads or maybe he will you know be recognized as guru and we

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of pushed him and for in his use case early bird was a kind of trust signal that yes actually

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: people care and he has enough authority and that pushed him to create this course and that's

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: good that's a very good thing I mean again I know some people and all mark and some of his products

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: when he's absolutely sure about the product he doesn't do early birds he just he just launched

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_02]: things and even if it's a big product he just he just launches so yeah I agree I think yeah that's

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: very contextual that's the problem like no nothing works for every situation and you cannot use the

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: armor to to screw doesn't work so yeah choose the best tools or recommendation pink use your brain

[01:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: okay I think we can go to my my final question for this for the podcast thanks a lot for

[01:21:48] [SPEAKER_00]: for this moment I think that was very useful and it will be useful for many people okay

[01:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: so did you add like a sentence or something you will have wished to know before you start your

[01:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: journey and being an entrepreneur and solopreneur man definitely collect more emails in the beginning

[01:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that's definitely something that was like first very big insight for me and just to elaborate I

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: think people who spend a lot of time on twitter you know every month you spend too much time

[01:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: on twitter you just just become closer and closer and deeper in the bubble of like this tech twitter

[01:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: in the hackers twitter and you just don't realize what is the average person doing and you know

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: we kind of think like oh I just need to launch a tool and like that's my marketing that's that's

[01:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: tweet launch tweet is my marketing you know if it's if it doesn't make me 10k on the first day

[01:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a bad product because we are so in the bubble we have this mindset and you know like an average

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: customer they they search you on google they need five to seven customer touch points they read

[01:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: your emails and they want to make sure you are not scammer and like you are a legit person

[01:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: they check reviews on other websites and I think email was kind of the first point to realize that

[01:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: before that I was like kind of in a way all it's do fancy indie marketing indie hackers twitter

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: product hunt but then you realize only broke indie makers hang out there they are not buying

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: anything they're different they customer behavior is different and people with money like uh

[01:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: they are actually you know in google they actually read emails and that was the first point

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: for me to collect emails and it was also the moment I realized the power of marketing funnel

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and not like this not like something a click funnel type of thing you know multiple things

[01:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: multiple authors webinar so yeah the idea is very simple just when you think about

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: marketing file just there's three things first how you will track high quality traffic every day

[01:24:13] [SPEAKER_02]: because we tend to think about product hunt launch or twitter launch but that's a one day

[01:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: just one day yeah and like the question is what do you do next week so it's first step second

[01:24:25] [SPEAKER_02]: step uh how do people understand your products value and you know again we are programmed to

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: only do landing pages but maybe it's not enough maybe you need to have a very good

[01:24:37] [SPEAKER_02]: free demo free trial maybe you need to have a newsletter maybe you need to have a freebeast

[01:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: to really like to communicate the value of your product and third like basically what is the

[01:24:52] [SPEAKER_02]: pricing what is an old brain and pricing how do you help people to buy right now and email

[01:24:57] [SPEAKER_02]: thing was the first step that I took to realize like I just do fancy indie marketing and there is

[01:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: like boring marketing that I need to do to have like a sustainable business and the day I started

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: doing emails it wasn't like it wasn't in it wasn't you know a win instantly no it was

[01:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: of course first email sequences first previous they thought it is suck but at some point we

[01:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: realized some things and the business became much more sustainable the first year I mentioned

[01:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: it felt like a red race you every month you need to launch something to make money to make living

[01:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: because the products from the previous months it's not selling good the sales are like spike

[01:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they're dying and yeah and when I realized that's because I don't have marketing

[01:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: final this because I only think about launched tweets and product launches that was the moment

[01:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I started to fix that so I think that's a very big idea and I'm definitely one of the I would

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: probably say the loudest person about that on Twitter yeah about like don't don't have these

[01:26:23] [SPEAKER_02]: like I just launch and see what's the strategy because I think that's not a scam but like that's

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_02]: a delusional promise delusion just delusional take that we have in community I mean we can go

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: deeper into that topic if you want to talk yeah there's so many delusional things in the

[01:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I have more technical question I think on the on the marketing funnel I would like like how did

[01:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you design it that because like most people don't know how to do that about marketing finals right

[01:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: yes so um yeah again just to reiterate it's just three questions traffic activation which is how you

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: communicate your products value and pricing how do you convert people most of the time we think

[01:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: about the traffic when you talk about with Andy Kaker and they're like oh I have low revenue

[01:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: they mostly think I need more traffic because we think like if I get as many people as possible at

[01:27:29] [SPEAKER_02]: least some people will buy and that's like absolutely irrational thought because that's the

[01:27:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that's the strategy of the people asking for a vote yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's your bucket

[01:27:44] [SPEAKER_02]: is leaking the and you your solution is not to fix the bucket your solution is to get more water

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: but the water will just leak away so here is how I suggest and that's what again what I do with

[01:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: when people ask for advice or something first of all start with your kind of with your product

[01:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah like your product and kind of positioning so you will start from the end from the conversion

[01:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: part like is your positioning good is it customer oriented do is your product different from 10 other

[01:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: alternatives just to give you an example to make it a little bit more yes so for example yeah let's

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: talk marketing to generator that's something I can give details so again pricing what we could

[01:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: do build a marketing platform for marketers and charge subscriptions okay that's a meaningful

[01:28:50] [SPEAKER_02]: thing to do but the question is how are we different from 10 alternatives that are doing

[01:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: just the same so we do something different we niche down to solopreneurs most people talk to

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_02]: marketers incorporation that's the first point of conversion optimization secondly we create

[01:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: pricing that is different it's not subscription it's a one-time payment it's easier so two steps we

[01:29:17] [SPEAKER_02]: do two small decisions but our offer is now more desirable to people to our target audience so

[01:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: we start from the end okay cool now the activation how do people understand the product's value

[01:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: here like for most of indie hackers who are listening to this the easiest thing you can do is

[01:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: to improve your landing page like start with your landing page even forget about emails

[01:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: free trials whatever man I've seen so many bad landing pages I mostly see bad landing pages at

[01:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: this point like you don't need you don't need to buy any tool whatever I mean if you buy

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: something it will definitely be a shortcut for you to get feedback but just go show your landing page

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: to entrepreneurs to people from your audience and just ask them to roast your landing page

[01:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're listening to this and you are not profitable I guarantee you your landing page

[01:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: suck absolutely without an exception it's a bad landing page even if you use tailwind

[01:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever some ship fast boilerplate it's not about the design so much it's more about how you tell a

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: story how you showcase your product how you talk about the audience work on the way you present

[01:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: your product so that's the best thing you can do in your marketing final that's the first most

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: important step you can do in your marketing funnel then you know when you talk about that

[01:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that make me think like you know for example when mark released a ship fast it got so many

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: copy paste solution of ship fast and then I visited the landing page and I was like oh my god they

[01:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: managed to copy it but they don't understand anything about what they're doing because the

[01:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the landing page is shit like the point is not like copying the feature you go nowhere like

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: ship fast work because he understands the user he understands his problem he's talking like him

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and again just like how did landing page of ship fast got better because mark sent it into

[01:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: group chat and me and nico brutally roasted this I think I don't remember that I'm pretty

[01:31:43] [SPEAKER_02]: sure I recorded him like a 10 minute video roasting things and nico did the same and like

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the first iterations of landing page of ship fast was shit and there were no problem agitation the

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: marketing copy was way weaker than it is now it's it's not the problem of mark it's a natural

[01:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: thing to build the shitty version of the landing page it's what we do because you can't create

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a masterpiece in vacuum you need people you need feedback and again if you listen to this I think

[01:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we solve the the twitter problem when people like trying to build an audience and say oh

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it's because he has an audience no he's he has he made good friends he came to twitter he made

[01:32:33] [SPEAKER_00]: good fucking friends and now he can do good landing pages yeah twitter friends that's what you

[01:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: need uh yeah I think an audience is uh yeah that's another topic so let's let's let's let's

[01:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah landing page is the first step you can do the second step you can do is to try to understand

[01:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: how people will get trust in you in your product and there is like a very big topic but this is

[01:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the most important topic of marketing finals because you know um let's say again

[01:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you create an AI wrapper and which promises something let's say I don't know meal plants meal plants for

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: people the question is how people will understand the value of the product okay some people it will

[01:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: be enough for them to watch a video and they will like yeah sounds good let's buy it for 20

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: dollars okay for some people uh they will need to try a free demo or a free trial and the truth to be

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_02]: told that's a very big chunk of users that most of your customers will be in the second category

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: for most of your customers a video will be not enough that's that's just how it is and the

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the third step is like to get reviews to get mentions from influencers to get you know to get

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: recognized into the community in which you are so like do this most people man they just build products

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that it even looks like they will abandon it in two weeks like even before it's bought yeah people

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: don't buy it not because it's a bad product not because it's a bad solution or there is no problem

[01:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: just because it looks like you will jump to the next product idea in two weeks and why would I buy

[01:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: money uh and yeah so that's a thing you can do and again just to mention it we still don't talk

[01:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: about traffic first we fix the pricing and positioning second we fix landing page and like

[01:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: how do you build trust that your product is actually a legit solution and it's good

[01:34:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and first now third okay how you get traffic and most people think again I will just build in public

[01:35:02] [SPEAKER_02]: on twitter I will just launch uh on product hunt I will optimize page speed report that's all very

[01:35:08] [SPEAKER_00]: nice and cute but like you need if I was basing my traffic on twitter I would make zero euro

[01:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: man same I mean it's crazy I'm a market generator on twitter I mostly get like oh I can do this in

[01:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: chat gpt you know oh that's that's what is this and and then like an entrepreneur in Malaysia

[01:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: buys the product for 200 dollars because they just don't want to click buttons in chat gpt and

[01:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that's just you know that's a thing if you are selling to tech savvy indie hackers who are optimized

[01:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to cut costs and find the cheapest solution man you will not build a lot of businesses and yeah

[01:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah the traffic thing um it's a big topic it's a big topic my you know you know there there's

[01:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: something I think I can relate on the on the pricing thing is um I build a tool for developers

[01:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: basically cupgoo is the tool made for developers and often I have people my basic price is 14

[01:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: euros a month which is a bit a bit like expensive for sas I mean it's it's good price and uh

[01:36:26] [SPEAKER_00]: sometimes I have people they are like yeah you know since your open source I will do my server

[01:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: my back end myself and I will not use you and I'm like you know I'm very fine with that I have fun

[01:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: with that like you are a software engineer you're probably around 100 euro an hour something like

[01:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that maybe for me cheaper point you can be cheaper my plan for a year is like 150 if you do it

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_00]: yourself that's mean you have to do it in less than two hours good luck with that otherwise

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you're just losing time and that's I have nothing to do with that I know you you're going to

[01:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you prefer to spend like hours and that instead of doing a small thing so fine yeah do it do it open

[01:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: source yeah I think that's a very good perspective and especially a good attitude if you launch on

[01:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: hawker news and read it you know that's that's something you need to have in mind when people

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: will you read replies there so yeah when we when we talk about it's even in my documentation now

[01:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: you can do it yourself open source but remember how much you cost by hour that's good that's good

[01:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a thing to mention in pricing too that's a really brilliant and to talk about traffic here I like

[01:37:37] [SPEAKER_02]: my best tips just like kind of generic but still first stop relying on twitter and product

[01:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: hunt stop treating this as your main martin channels it's fine that you get some traffic

[01:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I get traffic from twitter I get traffic from product hunt but like if this is your marketing

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: strategy in 2024 you will be doomed to have like I don't know a few hundreds of dollar MRR

[01:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the right cases in which twitter marketing works but most of cases that you have in your head

[01:38:12] [SPEAKER_02]: right now about some like influencer in indie hacking are not true they usually have and for example I can

[01:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: talk about I think mark a little bit sure mark monetize part of his twitter audience for sure

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but man the way his revenue increased when he was he started doing youtube this is like the

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that was the marketing channel there are more market shells like affiliate marketing that work

[01:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: really well for him if you do if you google on if you search on youtube ship fast you will see

[01:38:49] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of videos and they'll have referral link and that's something that you know that's

[01:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: very rare to see I don't see I don't think a lot of people in indie hacking community

[01:39:01] [SPEAKER_02]: they experienced this so that's very new and again if you think about marketing you think like

[01:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: oh twitter audience it's definitely a kickstart but it's not you know it's not a marketing strategy

[01:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not the only part of marketing strategy so please do yourself a favor

[01:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: stop relying on twitter and product hunt only on just make it like 20 percent of your marketing

[01:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: second you know find one marketing channel to figure it out in like three months it can be whatever

[01:39:37] [SPEAKER_02]: you want if you're selling b2b sus with a good like good price you can probably do code outreach

[01:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: could do link it in probably with like good content if this is you know more b2c you need

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: to do ads for sure or influencer marketing but this requires money you can probably find and

[01:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you know find a way to record organic short format videos that's a thing too so there are like many

[01:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: channels my tip is find one channel and just try to figure it out in one two three months it will

[01:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: take you time it will take you iterations don't expect quick results your first ads will suck

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: it will have negative ROI but you need to do it and then you know from this on you will add more and

[01:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: more and more and the third tip about SEO is very important if your product has zero paying

[01:40:39] [SPEAKER_02]: customers so like close to zero you know it's not validated please don't do SEO because

[01:40:46] [SPEAKER_02]: to get significant results yeah you need to wait months high chances are you will pivot your product

[01:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: multiple times secondly it's very competitive in most niches if you for example let's say you have

[01:41:03] [SPEAKER_02]: like a to-do app you know and you try to do SEO for to-do app congrats you are like on the page

[01:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: 200 because you know to-do apps before we're doing the same thing again sometimes it works

[01:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: a good example which is one of my favorite from Indie Hacker community is Dmitro with screenshot one

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: like it's a screenshot API not a lot of people are you know crazy enough to build

[01:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: one and Dmitro was one of them and for him it was very reasonable because he has this like

[01:41:36] [SPEAKER_02]: keyword and he just wants to be the number one for this keyword because when people

[01:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: search for screenshot API there is not so much competition he can be number one but in most

[01:41:49] [SPEAKER_02]: products this will be not the case if for example again let's say Mark tries to you know win in

[01:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: SEO with like sales boilerplate I will probably expect him to be like it will be much more

[01:42:03] [SPEAKER_02]: challenging than YouTube or affiliate marketing because there are so many good open source

[01:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: task boilerplate that it will be hard to market the paid product but again sometimes it works

[01:42:16] [SPEAKER_02]: if your product is niched down enough you especially if you build free tools you can probably rank

[01:42:22] [SPEAKER_02]: higher but again rule of thumb if you have zero paying customers close to it don't try to do

[01:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: SEO even if you have been doing it your whole life you need a different marketing channel

[01:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: okay thanks for that now we can go to my three last question very easy and quick to answer

[01:42:46] [SPEAKER_00]: do you have a favorite quote something you like to repeat yourself I think like the first thing

[01:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that I don't I think I have a quote I like like I think memes is the kind of thing that I remember

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: more vividly and I think this is like a meme quote that works yeah like we do it not because it's easy

[01:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: but because we thought it will be easy so I think that's that's a cool one that explains a lot of

[01:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: things in entrepreneurship and that's a good like stoic approach to building products definitely

[01:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: agree and the thanks for the for this we'll try to find the the meme image with that

[01:43:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to show it I don't know if I can show that in the description maybe

[01:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: okay what who is the next person I should invite after you in the spot casts

[01:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Nico and mark probably already were here right Nico just before you and mark was like one year

[01:43:44] [SPEAKER_02]: ago so it's like oh gee okay okay I was successful yeah okay I would probably say Dmitro if he wasn't

[01:43:54] [SPEAKER_02]: here I think again one of the best examples of indie hacking like um indie hacker community is

[01:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: often criticized and like rightfully so for selling kind of shovels in during the gold rush to each

[01:44:09] [SPEAKER_02]: other and that's that's true and I think Dmitro is like a good example of building a product that has

[01:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: almost nothing to do with his audience on Twitter that solves the problem I'm a happy customer

[01:44:21] [SPEAKER_02]: of screenshot one the product is great and you know and he has kubernetes so it's also like

[01:44:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you know a kind of fun thing about indie hacker so I think he's very inspirational to a lot of

[01:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: people who try to find a little bit more sustainable way in indie hacking okay got it I will I will

[01:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: contact him thanks for that and put the link also of his name in the description of the podcast

[01:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: last question is for you where we send people who wants to buy your product and become your

[01:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: client or just know better about you if you want to buy my products you go to funda pail AI

[01:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: if you don't want to buy my products you go to my twitter read a few of my posts and then like you

[01:45:05] [SPEAKER_02]: lose all the appetite for my product so you know choose what works for you but two main links is

[01:45:12] [SPEAKER_02]: funda pail AI and uh twitter at tan cool puff yes of course the link will be in the description

[01:45:21] [SPEAKER_00]: for all of them if you want it's easier to click than to try to guess how to route it

[01:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks a lot for your time that was amazing I think I learned a lot even for myself so I hope people

[01:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: also learn thank you it was a pleasure to talk yeah thanks so if our listener enjoyed the podcast

[01:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I recommend to sometimes just send us a message like thank you it was amazing the podcast or

[01:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: thank you I have this question or something it's always cool to know we've been listened

[01:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was interesting for you and I say to you see you next week bye