From IBM to $8K MRR: How This Solo Founder Cracked AI for Real Estate 🏠💰

[00:00:00] Tell me the pronunciation of your family, Clavelou

[00:00:03] Clavelou

[00:00:03] Simple, I didn't miss it

[00:00:07] Today I welcome Pauline Clavelou on the show, thanks for accepting my invitation

[00:00:13] Hello Martin, hello everyone

[00:00:16] Pauline, if you should resume your path as an entrepreneur, how you will do that?

[00:00:20] I think it all started with I have the big idea and I want to build and I don't build it because I realize it's too difficult or I don't have some skills or I don't know how to do

[00:00:35] So I have this idea I start to work on and I don't do anything and then a year later I have a complete other mind shift, mind theft and I think right now it's more like I start to build some business and let's see if it works or not

[00:00:55] And if it works, obviously, let's focus on it

[00:00:59] So that's how you started your first idea, like idea career

[00:01:03] Yes, it wasn't my first idea, but it's the first one that I think was quite profitable comparing to the other one

[00:01:13] Give us some examples of other ideas you did and never worked

[00:01:18] Yes, so for instance, I think it was the first one I built to the end, that is was crypto trading

[00:01:24] I created a bot that traded like every time like every day, every night, constantly on crypto and automatically buy and sell for myself

[00:01:39] So I earned money with this. It was quite profitable multiple of five

[00:01:47] To compare it. I think the Bitcoin was a free time so it was better than the whole market

[00:01:54] And I had this idea, but the problem is in France at least you are not able to sell the way to trade for people

[00:02:06] So because you need some regulation and you have to have a certificate

[00:02:12] Yes, so it was a journey I didn't want to start because it would take me maybe two years to have the certification

[00:02:19] I didn't want so I tried to sell alerts like notification to tell people when to buy when to sell based on some parameters

[00:02:29] So I tried to sell this but I had zero clients in the end

[00:02:33] So, yes, I thought it was a fail

[00:02:37] This still exists? Like this is still trading for you?

[00:02:41] No, I stopped it because at a certain moment it was a hard model was great when the market was either profitable either in stagnation

[00:02:53] But not when it's complete crashing

[00:02:58] So I stopped it and after I did some other businesses and I didn't take the time to start it again

[00:03:05] Yeah, it was an idea we had this year with my co-founder but at the end we didn't take this time

[00:03:11] We had some other priorities, let's say

[00:03:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a quick question to this project like you said like it was regulation in France blah blah blah

[00:03:21] But in the crypto world many people pay in crypto and fuck the system. Why you didn't go that way?

[00:03:29] I'm allowed in France even to buy and sell crypto. I am allowed to it.

[00:03:36] But to have a company that buy and sell for other people, this is regulated and I could say I don't care

[00:03:43] But I think I'm too legally scared

[00:03:48] I mean I want to do things correctly

[00:03:51] So I think you can have big problems if you don't

[00:03:53] So I really don't want to take any risk on this

[00:03:57] Yeah, yeah for sure you can have big problems

[00:03:59] But I was just asking you to know if it was the part of the decision it was something else

[00:04:04] Okay, thanks for that. So that was the first one

[00:04:07] And like between this one and IdeaCorea, how much project did you start and launch?

[00:04:14] I think around two or three

[00:04:18] There was a

[00:04:20] Yeah, I think I had one interesting it was a it's called Unreal Me

[00:04:25] The website is still live but it's not mine anymore

[00:04:29] Because I sold it I think three months after I launched it

[00:04:34] The idea was I just surfed on the AI

[00:04:38] Trend

[00:04:39] I built a

[00:04:43] Sass where you could upload photos of yourself and the idea was to turn yourself into funny pictures like yourself in Spiderman or in 3D

[00:04:53] Yeah, it was fun but I think it wasn't something really serious like people don't need it

[00:05:00] It's not a recurrent need so it was one time payment

[00:05:04] And I didn't have a big vision on this so I sold it

[00:05:09] And yeah, I had a few other ones but like there is another one I didn't launch actually because

[00:05:17] I launched but I exit the day I launched because

[00:05:21] Elon Musk

[00:05:22] Yeah, because that day Elon Musk announced the API will now cost

[00:05:29] No way

[00:05:30] $32,000 every month

[00:05:32] So I said okay

[00:05:34] I don't have this too much

[00:05:35] It was a good journey

[00:05:37] Yeah

[00:05:39] And what was the project doing?

[00:05:43] It was called Tweet Explorer and the idea was to export all your data Twitter to Google Sheets

[00:05:50] And we provided some templates like to analyze all your data like your audience, your tweets

[00:05:58] And to automatically and also you could post it and so it was more analysis tool

[00:06:07] I have to say my background is working in data

[00:06:11] So I love to analyze them

[00:06:15] Okay, that's interesting

[00:06:17] And talking about the background I think we didn't went much far but like you can talk a bit about like where you were before becoming an entrepreneur and since when are you an entrepreneur?

[00:06:30] Yeah, sure

[00:06:30] So I

[00:06:32] So I

[00:06:33] I studied engineering IT and then I worked for nine years at IBM as a data scientist

[00:06:44] So but at the beginning I knew nothing about data science because it was a very new job

[00:06:49] It was a very early stage

[00:06:51] Why did you took your job? You find the topic interesting?

[00:06:54] Yes, exactly. I did an Erasmus in Barcelona and there I studied big data

[00:07:00] We don't talk much about big data anymore but at this time I learned it and I said wow that's cool to work in data

[00:07:07] So I wanted to continue there

[00:07:10] And I think yes, I don't know if I answered your whole question. I kind of forgot

[00:07:16] No, no, the point was like to know a bit like your background

[00:07:21] So you went to IBM and you worked like it was the only company you worked for until you quit?

[00:07:27] I

[00:07:28] I worked a few months for a company called Avanad which is a joint venture between Microsoft and Accenture

[00:07:37] So basically there I was consultant as working for an ERP

[00:07:41] But yeah, I didn't stay longer because my dream was to work at IBM at that moment

[00:07:48] Okay, that's really something you wanted

[00:07:52] What was attracting you in IBM to make that a dream?

[00:07:58] Yeah, because at this time I thought I really

[00:08:01] In my mind IBM was innovative

[00:08:05] They were good at technology

[00:08:08] I liked the in my mind

[00:08:11] Yes, so I said okay I want to be part of it

[00:08:16] Okay, okay so your experience inside was different than your expectations?

[00:08:22] No, they are very good

[00:08:24] They are really good at technology

[00:08:27] Okay

[00:08:27] But it's a big company

[00:08:30] Sometimes you say oh I will do this, this, this and actually

[00:08:33] Because it's very big you are

[00:08:35] Yes

[00:08:37] Yeah, that's the sad part of company like a big company

[00:08:41] Like and it's like it's not like IBM, it's like any company

[00:08:44] They struggle with politics because at one point you have so many humans

[00:08:48] It's like becoming a country

[00:08:50] So you have politics problems

[00:08:52] But yeah, okay

[00:08:54] And what push you to leave this world?

[00:08:58] Like because you have been in corporate world for a while

[00:09:00] So what push you to go to indie maker, indie making journey?

[00:09:06] I think I always had many ideas

[00:09:09] I always wanted to create

[00:09:11] But I think like 10 years ago I was too young

[00:09:15] I was scared by administrative stuff

[00:09:19] I'm still scared

[00:09:20] You know

[00:09:20] I

[00:09:23] You grew up in

[00:09:25] Yeah, but

[00:09:26] Yeah, 10 years ago I did a bit of freelancing

[00:09:30] But also I created some projects that as I said before I just never launched

[00:09:34] But I think I was ready like 3 years ago

[00:09:39] Because when I started this project of crypto

[00:09:41] It was after or during Covid

[00:09:45] During Covid you had this period in France

[00:09:48] Like you were able to travel but you had to

[00:09:53] I don't know how it's

[00:09:55] To fill the paper?

[00:09:56] In English?

[00:09:57] Yeah, curfew

[00:09:59] So there is this

[00:10:00] So I visited a friend of mine

[00:10:04] That is a developer

[00:10:05] And I said, I have this project

[00:10:07] Do you want to build it with me?

[00:10:09] And I said yes

[00:10:09] And her husband

[00:10:12] He actually isn't scared by administratively

[00:10:17] He kind of liked it

[00:10:18] So I said, okay, so we have this person who can help us

[00:10:22] So now we can build this project together

[00:10:25] And I think I was scared but now

[00:10:29] It's when you go through the steps where people really take time to explain to you

[00:10:35] Then it becomes easier

[00:10:37] Yeah, I think like for everything is like that, you know

[00:10:40] I was scared for a long time of data, you know

[00:10:45] Like handling data and stuff like that

[00:10:46] And in some projects you need that

[00:10:48] Like in CapGo you need that

[00:10:49] And I was like, I don't want to go there

[00:10:52] And then I started to work in a company

[00:10:54] Like where we did that

[00:10:55] And I was like, oh, it's not so complex

[00:10:57] You just need to know the things and someone telling you

[00:11:00] And everything can be learned

[00:11:01] It's just like you take the time of it

[00:11:04] And you can go through it

[00:11:06] Yeah, exactly

[00:11:09] So okay, so that's super nice

[00:11:11] You started this journey like that

[00:11:13] And so now, let's go to your current project

[00:11:16] Like what's the current project you're working on right now?

[00:11:19] Yes, and so right now I'm working at mainly for AI CREA

[00:11:25] Which is a SaaS for real estate agent

[00:11:31] At least that's the first time

[00:11:34] Basically it's a tool that you just upload a photo of a home

[00:11:39] That is a room that is not really nice

[00:11:44] Like really holds like think about your grandma's home

[00:11:47] And the idea is to turn it into a beautiful home

[00:11:54] Or it's an empty room and that you want to add some furniture to it

[00:11:58] But all of this automatically with AI

[00:12:01] So this is the idea

[00:12:03] And the idea is to be really, really simple

[00:12:09] Because the real estate agents aren't interior decorators

[00:12:14] It's not there

[00:12:16] They don't want to customize to say

[00:12:18] I want this ground

[00:12:19] I want this kind of color on the wall

[00:12:22] Just want to say I want something beautiful

[00:12:24] In Scandinavian team for example

[00:12:27] And yes, then the magic happens

[00:12:31] Okay, and where did you get this idea from?

[00:12:34] Because like this is far from your world

[00:12:37] It looks like from the external point of view

[00:12:39] It is far and I think one of the difficulties was to find clients

[00:12:43] But it was near my skill

[00:12:46] Because I previously

[00:12:49] Like I said a few words before on Unreal Me

[00:12:52] But the idea was kind of the same

[00:12:54] I used images and I used like processes to

[00:13:00] On these images

[00:13:02] To finally not change the face

[00:13:05] Your face but I changed the image of a room

[00:13:10] So I think skills were pretty more the same

[00:13:16] So I used this skill and then I had to find the audience

[00:13:20] I had to find the clients

[00:13:21] Which I think it was more difficult than the tech

[00:13:25] Okay, so the client thinks is the difficult part

[00:13:30] And like how did you learn about addressing them?

[00:13:35] Like did you want to agency?

[00:13:38] Or how did you get in contact with this niche finally?

[00:13:43] Hmm

[00:13:44] So I

[00:13:46] I actually went to some communities

[00:13:49] Of real estate agents

[00:13:52] Online and offline

[00:13:54] Like in a physical way

[00:13:56] I met some people

[00:13:59] Like there is some event for real estate

[00:14:02] And I went there and I discussed with people

[00:14:04] And I said, hey, I'm building this

[00:14:05] Do you think it's interesting for you?

[00:14:08] And asking for feedbacks

[00:14:10] And people tried

[00:14:11] People were happy

[00:14:12] And they said, okay, now how can I pay to use this service?

[00:14:17] So it's actually really nice to see people willing to pay to use it

[00:14:22] That's very nice

[00:14:23] And do you share publicly how much you're making with that lately?

[00:14:27] Yeah, I share sometimes

[00:14:29] I think around the 8,000 a month

[00:14:34] And how long it took you to reach this?

[00:14:37] About a year

[00:14:40] But I think it all started

[00:14:41] Yeah, like a month after I

[00:14:45] I think it took me like 4 months to reach 500

[00:14:50] And then I grew it

[00:14:52] And now it's 8,000

[00:14:54] And now I'm trying to grow it even more

[00:14:59] Okay, and what are you trying to do to grow it?

[00:15:02] Like what's your main focus on the business right now?

[00:15:06] I'm trying to find some new marketing way

[00:15:09] A new kind of client also

[00:15:12] I was focused on the real estate agent

[00:15:14] But I think I could sell it to some other person

[00:15:18] So I'm working on this as well

[00:15:20] I like to always use kind of the same tech

[00:15:24] But differently for different persona

[00:15:27] So this is something I'm really trying to do currently

[00:15:31] And let's see if it works

[00:15:33] But I have some different clients

[00:15:36] Some businesses use AI CREA with the API

[00:15:41] So people really build business on top of AI CREA

[00:15:47] So that's

[00:15:48] That's pretty cool

[00:15:49] I sell it differently

[00:15:50] It's not a subscription like on the website

[00:15:54] Because it's not an end user

[00:15:55] Yeah, it's like a buy users

[00:15:57] Exactly, but some use high volume

[00:16:00] So it's free

[00:16:03] Okay

[00:16:03] It's very nice

[00:16:04] I'm like curious

[00:16:06] Like what type of client uses you as an API

[00:16:10] Because I don't see a agency doing that

[00:16:12] So it's like

[00:16:13] Yeah, it's like

[00:16:15] You know the portal?

[00:16:17] A listing website for instance

[00:16:20] Ah, yes

[00:16:21] Yeah, definitely

[00:16:22] It could be an upsell from a listing website

[00:16:26] Yes

[00:16:27] Okay, makes sense

[00:16:29] So cool

[00:16:30] So cool use case

[00:16:31] Okay, I think we can

[00:16:33] We can go to some interesting question on that

[00:16:36] Like do you have like a struggle to grow

[00:16:39] To grow this business

[00:16:40] Things like

[00:16:41] Is that difficult for you still?

[00:16:43] Because you were talking earlier

[00:16:44] Like you were scared of admin tasks and stuff

[00:16:47] So right now

[00:16:47] What is your nemesis right now in your business?

[00:16:52] Like what was difficult you say?

[00:16:54] Oh, it's still difficult

[00:16:56] It depends on you

[00:16:57] Yeah

[00:16:58] Yeah, one of the difficulties was

[00:17:00] But it's really

[00:17:03] Attached to AI

[00:17:04] But AI is difficult

[00:17:07] Because you need high

[00:17:09] Powered machines

[00:17:10] Like I cannot run my models on my computer

[00:17:15] I need bigger servers

[00:17:17] Bigger GPUs

[00:17:19] And this is quite expensive

[00:17:21] So even like when you train models

[00:17:24] When you are in development phase

[00:17:27] To try some pieces of models together

[00:17:30] It always takes time

[00:17:31] And it kind of makes anxious

[00:17:35] Because you see like

[00:17:37] The cost of the machine is per second

[00:17:39] So you see the cost of the machine

[00:17:41] And you say

[00:17:42] Oh, this takes time

[00:17:43] And oh, it failed

[00:17:45] I have to try again

[00:17:46] And this is kind of a pressure way to

[00:17:48] In Casino

[00:17:48] You are playing with money each time

[00:17:50] Yes, so this is difficult

[00:17:53] Also, one thing that is difficult is to get some data

[00:17:58] Because to train some specific models

[00:18:01] I have to make partnership with some companies to give me the data

[00:18:06] So, I think that's kind of big issues I encountered

[00:18:12] Yeah, I remember like I did like you a bit

[00:18:16] The first IA project you did

[00:18:18] You know the funny one

[00:18:19] I did something a bit like that

[00:18:21] Making couple pictures for Christmas

[00:18:24] Like a kind of Christmas card with your partner

[00:18:27] So you put pictures separate of you

[00:18:29] And the IA creates the postcard for you

[00:18:33] And that was so long

[00:18:36] To each time you want to try

[00:18:38] It's like 30 minutes or 20 minutes

[00:18:40] And you're like, oh God

[00:18:41] And then you realize

[00:18:43] Oh, I fuck up

[00:18:44] Again

[00:18:46] So it took you three days

[00:18:48] While the front end was ready

[00:18:50] Everything was ready like in a day or two

[00:18:52] Because you can test like every seconds basically

[00:18:55] But with IA it's like so slow

[00:18:56] Like you do untest every minute

[00:18:59] Every 10, 20 minutes

[00:19:00] So you need to

[00:19:01] Yeah, the way of working is like very very slow in the IA field

[00:19:07] So, I'm really excited

[00:19:09] Yeah, it really takes time to test and also to train

[00:19:12] Like if you

[00:19:15] Yeah, you can train model, you can use model

[00:19:18] Using it takes time but also training is even

[00:19:22] Yeah, I realize also on this field

[00:19:25] For me was something very like annoying

[00:19:28] It's like there are no much information on the internet

[00:19:31] Like when you're doing like front end

[00:19:34] Like you know the technology exists for five years

[00:19:37] So it starts to be well documented

[00:19:38] All the problems as well are well documented

[00:19:41] And IA stuff I feel like

[00:19:43] Oh, I find a problem

[00:19:44] And then no one has this problem online

[00:19:46] So it's like okay, so what do we do?

[00:19:48] Stack Overflow doesn't know, IA doesn't know

[00:19:51] So you just like keep trying stupid things

[00:19:53] Until you realize like how to bypass the problem

[00:19:57] But it's crazy this field for me

[00:19:59] And it's evolved all the time

[00:20:00] Like I saw on Twitter like Danny Posma

[00:20:02] Was talking about that like

[00:20:05] You never sleep basically because things are evolving all the time

[00:20:08] I don't know for you if you have this because your field is maybe less moving

[00:20:12] Like because the it was a lot of problem in the human body and stuff like that

[00:20:17] So each time they have evolution they need to keep up

[00:20:19] But do you have this also this race of keeping up with the latest model and stuff?

[00:20:23] Yes, exactly the same

[00:20:26] I have to be aware of which models are more realistic and which one

[00:20:32] Yes, it's more accurate and it's always a game of working with some parameters to fit the use case

[00:20:43] Okay, and do you see a big change in the business when the model evolves?

[00:20:50] Like do you see like just changing the model for example is making like a bigger business like really fast or

[00:20:57] So much impact so fast impact?

[00:21:00] Yes, there is high impact by changing models

[00:21:04] It really depends on the use case but for instance

[00:21:07] I

[00:21:08] My current model for the exteriors. It's a bit of an unnatural

[00:21:15] It's kind of flu for the grass

[00:21:18] So yes, the green is really green

[00:21:22] Too green

[00:21:22] Yes, a bit too green

[00:21:24] And I really fine-tuned model to have a natural aspect and I'm really happy because it worked yesterday

[00:21:31] So now I have to put it in prediction

[00:21:34] Nice!

[00:21:34] Make some a bit more test but

[00:21:37] Yes, it's really the before and after is really

[00:21:42] Uncomparable

[00:21:43] Okay, okay

[00:21:44] So that's crazy

[00:21:46] Crazy work

[00:21:47] I am happy I'm not touching AI anymore

[00:21:50] I mean unless working with it like to help me code

[00:21:53] But to create projects with AI is like it requires such a dedication

[00:21:58] So I'm glad you did

[00:22:01] No, but you know I feel you because now I'm saying

[00:22:05] Okay, now I want to create business not on AI but a more easier one

[00:22:12] Yeah, yeah

[00:22:13] Not really easier, I mean easier technically because it's not

[00:22:16] Yeah, to reach an audience is not easier

[00:22:20] Yeah, I think for me it's not even like easier technically because like it can be hard technically

[00:22:26] But in other kind of business when you manage to find the path to the hard way to fix the thing

[00:22:33] Usually you don't need to change it every two weeks

[00:22:36] So, you know right now in my business I am trying to solve a big problem which is technically very very hard

[00:22:42] Is to do partial updates

[00:22:44] So you know Capgo is an update system for mobile apps

[00:22:48] And what I'm doing is just zipping the update sending the update

[00:22:52] And this is nice but when the app is like 500 megabytes

[00:22:56] This is bad for the user

[00:22:58] So what I'm trying to do is to find what's changing in the app

[00:23:01] In the update and just send that to the user

[00:23:04] And this whole process of like

[00:23:07] Sheree picking the files uploading the right files

[00:23:10] Like doing the checksum of every file

[00:23:12] Comparing the checksums in every place in the app

[00:23:15] It's like it's very complex

[00:23:18] And it took me like since last year we tried to work on it

[00:23:22] We managed to do it last year, but the code was so bad and so messy

[00:23:26] So we couldn't put it in production because of so many bugs

[00:23:28] And now we're doing it again and I expect like in September it will finally be out

[00:23:33] But this is like a long, long story

[00:23:35] But I know when it will be done, it will be done

[00:23:37] There are no new models of partial updates coming

[00:23:41] Unless I find a better way

[00:23:43] But normally it will be good

[00:23:46] And I can focus on marketing and other stuff

[00:23:48] So yeah, that's something now I'm looking like

[00:23:53] If I launch a new business I will try to find solutions like

[00:23:57] They are working long term

[00:23:59] Because AYA is like a lot about short term things

[00:24:03] Like you have to keep up with everything because it's recent

[00:24:06] So it makes it harder

[00:24:08] It makes it also very good money

[00:24:10] That's why like many projects success and a big success

[00:24:13] But the job is harder

[00:24:17] You have to be like better in every aspect to compete properly

[00:24:21] And yeah, huge respect for you doing that and making it work

[00:24:26] Thank you, but I think AI it's not

[00:24:29] It's a tech but it used to be like you market your SaaS because there is AI

[00:24:35] So you say, hey, I have AI

[00:24:37] And I even serve the train like it's called AI Crea

[00:24:41] Yeah

[00:24:42] But I think people in the end really don't care if it's AI or nothing else

[00:24:47] They just want something that answers their needs

[00:24:51] Yeah, yeah

[00:24:52] No, definitely I think AI will not be a marketing argument anymore

[00:24:58] Like not much in the future

[00:25:00] Because what the user wants to know is like it's realistic for example

[00:25:04] Or like they do a beautiful exterior

[00:25:08] And the grass looks like natural

[00:25:10] But like knowing this is done by AI or fucking human or whatever

[00:25:14] A painter, they don't care, they just want the result

[00:25:18] Yes

[00:25:19] So often it's the same with the Apple product, you know

[00:25:22] They don't sell like a CPU, they just sell like this is so powerful

[00:25:25] This is even 10 times powerful than your last Mac

[00:25:28] And that makes sense like for users like wow, okay amazing

[00:25:32] How we did it?

[00:25:33] It's because we reduced like the nanometers of the printing or whatever

[00:25:36] No one cares

[00:25:37] Like only the tech people look at it

[00:25:40] But Apple don't market that nowhere

[00:25:43] From almost nowhere

[00:25:44] Maybe now it's a bit different sometimes

[00:25:46] But yeah, that's the thing

[00:25:49] You have to be like focused into the user benefit

[00:25:56] Instead of the technically behind it

[00:26:00] And that often I think something like developers, indie makers

[00:26:06] Don't do well

[00:26:07] It's because they are so proud of the techniques behind

[00:26:09] You know, they will almost tell you which framework they use to do this

[00:26:13] This thing

[00:26:14] And you're like, yeah, man

[00:26:17] I don't care

[00:26:18] I want to pay for something

[00:26:20] Yeah, because indie makers are really focused

[00:26:22] Usually I take people at it

[00:26:24] Yeah, and that's why also

[00:26:26] If you look at the boilerplate kind of ecosystem

[00:26:30] You know, much ecosystem

[00:26:32] Much of them are selling like technical things

[00:26:35] You know, like Mark Liu for example

[00:26:37] Is selling like, okay, you're gonna ship fast

[00:26:39] And he's fucking like killing it

[00:26:42] Because that's what he sells

[00:26:43] He sells like people

[00:26:45] Like they have struggled to launch a project

[00:26:47] So he's selling them

[00:26:49] You're gonna do it fast

[00:26:50] And that is a huge benefit

[00:26:52] Behind, if it's Javascript, TypeScript, shitty code

[00:26:55] You don't care

[00:26:56] You just want to know

[00:26:58] Like you're gonna do it faster

[00:27:00] And most of people are like, yeah, but it's bad code behind

[00:27:03] It's like, yeah, you missed the purpose

[00:27:05] Like we don't care about like the code

[00:27:07] I mean, some people will care

[00:27:09] But the one who cares will probably not succeed anyway

[00:27:11] Because they have to care about the users

[00:27:13] Not their own needs

[00:27:15] And yeah, but that's very funny to see that

[00:27:18] I think for me the boilerplate thing is the most

[00:27:21] The place where you can see this the most

[00:27:23] Because like most of developers

[00:27:25] Concurrents of Mark are selling like features

[00:27:27] Technology, like it's in Vue.js

[00:27:30] Or it's in whatever

[00:27:33] It's like, yeah, cool

[00:27:34] Yeah, I build also a boilerplate

[00:27:37] But not for SaaS

[00:27:39] Yeah, I, but mine is not

[00:27:41] I'm not selling like feature or

[00:27:45] Yes, the take-off

[00:27:46] I think it's kind of important

[00:27:47] Because you won't sell a next-year boilerplate

[00:27:50] To someone that code in PHP

[00:27:52] Yeah, there are something I agree

[00:27:54] But no, I'm selling the boilerplate to

[00:27:56] Create directories website

[00:27:59] Because I needed one actually

[00:28:01] And I said, okay, this is kind of annoying

[00:28:03] To each time

[00:28:06] It's the same website for every directory

[00:28:09] You have listing posts and you can sponsor one

[00:28:14] And you can send some

[00:28:15] And you have some categories

[00:28:17] So each time is the same

[00:28:19] So I said, okay, we all have the same need

[00:28:21] I guess, so let's try to

[00:28:23] So I did it for myself at the beginning

[00:28:25] And then I said, okay, now I can try to sell it

[00:28:27] Because I saw it's people actually send boilerplate

[00:28:32] Why not me?

[00:28:33] Yeah, yeah, no, it's a good market

[00:28:36] Especially when you have like a niche or something

[00:28:38] You know you're competent in it

[00:28:39] And you can provide value to users

[00:28:41] It's definitely it

[00:28:43] What I don't believe in is when you try to sell things

[00:28:47] Because you believe the guy who is selling the most

[00:28:48] Is doing it wrong

[00:28:51] Just starting with this idea is already stupid

[00:28:54] Because he's selling, he's right

[00:28:56] He's right, he's right on something

[00:28:58] Maybe not on everything

[00:29:00] But users are thinking he's right

[00:29:03] Because that's not the first one

[00:29:04] Many boilerplate exist like before

[00:29:07] So, same for you

[00:29:09] Like if you sell, you're right

[00:29:11] So I hope you do

[00:29:13] Did you launched it already?

[00:29:15] Yes, I launched it in

[00:29:17] I think in June or May

[00:29:21] And but this is really different

[00:29:23] I mean it's kind of a side project

[00:29:25] Built it, sold it

[00:29:27] And now it's running

[00:29:31] It's one time payment

[00:29:33] And with this I experimented the

[00:29:37] AppSumo

[00:29:39] That's the one of AppSumo?

[00:29:41] That's the one, yes

[00:29:43] Oh nice!

[00:29:43] Yes, because AppSumo for

[00:29:46] I think for subscriptions is quite a nightmare

[00:29:48] Because you sell lifetime deal

[00:29:50] And you have to generate coupons

[00:29:52] So things like that

[00:29:53] It's really, really not easy

[00:29:55] So yes, I experimented with this

[00:30:00] That's interesting

[00:30:01] It's easy, it's a zip file

[00:30:02] So I can just plot the file to AppSumo

[00:30:04] And people pay and they receive it

[00:30:06] And get it, yeah

[00:30:07] I'm very surprised you did that

[00:30:09] Because like for me, AppSumo

[00:30:11] Market is more like marketers

[00:30:14] There are developers there

[00:30:16] Like you did good sales on it?

[00:30:18] I mean not good, I think I made a few sales

[00:30:22] But that actually was a big problem

[00:30:26] That some people were not developers

[00:30:30] And I'm really saying I'm selling boilerplate in Next.js

[00:30:35] With blah, blah, blah

[00:30:37] But also some...

[00:30:38] Yes, one thing since Starview

[00:30:40] How you can manage the boilerplate without coding

[00:30:44] Because I implemented some no-code admin dashboards

[00:30:49] But you have to be coder to install it

[00:30:52] And to modify the design

[00:30:54] But some people didn't know

[00:30:56] So they just buy because it's cheap

[00:30:57] And then say, ah, but what is this?

[00:31:01] I reserved a zip file

[00:31:03] What do I do?

[00:31:04] Yeah, this is the code

[00:31:05] Yes, exactly

[00:31:07] I'm not a developer, ask ChatGPT, okay?

[00:31:10] Yes, I even changed the description to say

[00:31:13] Warning, this is for developers

[00:31:15] Because I had like two or three people

[00:31:18] Totally means

[00:31:19] But once I had, yeah, some developers buy it

[00:31:24] And I had, I think, one of the best reviews I had

[00:31:27] I read in my mind that someone that said

[00:31:30] Good thing about it

[00:31:31] At first he said, it's not good

[00:31:35] And then he changed his mind

[00:31:36] Because he joined the Discord

[00:31:38] And we are here to help

[00:31:40] So he joined, we helped him with the code

[00:31:42] And to reach what he wanted to install

[00:31:46] And yeah, he changed his review

[00:31:48] With a very good review

[00:31:49] We didn't ask for it

[00:31:51] Really, because I think we built it

[00:31:54] But we don't really care if

[00:31:56] Yeah, it's so good

[00:31:57] We don't really spend time to market it

[00:32:00] And so he changed his review

[00:32:02] And at the end he said, buy whatever Pauline is building

[00:32:06] Because it's really awesome

[00:32:07] You can ask questions later

[00:32:09] Yeah, I saw this

[00:32:11] You tweeted this week

[00:32:13] Yeah, I think I will frame it to my bedroom

[00:32:19] Max ego

[00:32:20] Every morning

[00:32:21] Just kidding, just kidding

[00:32:25] Why not?

[00:32:25] Sometimes, you know, we need that

[00:32:27] We need like this nudge in our life

[00:32:29] To remember like we're doing also things good

[00:32:32] You know, on the bad days

[00:32:33] You will read it and you're like

[00:32:34] I am not doing so bad

[00:32:36] Yes, exactly

[00:32:37] Because we always see some success

[00:32:39] But there

[00:32:41] We have some big fail also

[00:32:43] And sometimes I'm really not in the mind

[00:32:46] I'm really not in the mood

[00:32:48] Sorry

[00:32:49] Yeah, yeah

[00:32:50] Okay, this is hard

[00:32:51] Will I ever make money with something?

[00:32:55] Will I, could I leave from my business?

[00:32:58] So yes, sometimes it's hard

[00:33:00] And it's good to see some positive messages

[00:33:04] Yeah, and I think we

[00:33:05] We have a tendency to easily forget the good

[00:33:08] And focus on the bad, you know

[00:33:10] Like you will talk like hours about how much you're struggling

[00:33:14] And how much you're bad at doing marketing, admin or whatever

[00:33:17] But your fucking success

[00:33:18] You will talking maybe once, two, three

[00:33:20] And then forget, you know

[00:33:23] Because we, I think we have this kind of thing

[00:33:26] Where we believe like talking about our success is bragging at one point

[00:33:29] So you have to limit yourself

[00:33:31] In fact, I believe this is also very good for ourselves, you know

[00:33:34] To not like get insane just thinking about the bad things

[00:33:38] For hours, you know

[00:33:39] Like this winter for me, I was like that

[00:33:41] I was like in struggle, everything was like a mess

[00:33:44] Nothing was working and it was so hard

[00:33:47] While I have many things, I have good success

[00:33:49] And still, you know, I have a SaaS making money

[00:33:51] And stuff like that, which is like very hard already

[00:33:54] And I was just like in my mind about like the bad, the bad stuff, you know

[00:33:58] Like I'm struggling with money, I'm struggling like to do things

[00:34:01] I don't have clients right now, this isn't safe, blah, blah, blah

[00:34:04] It's just in your mind and at one point you get out of that

[00:34:07] Everything is better again, everything is in the mind

[00:34:12] Yes, yes, really we have to focus also on really think about

[00:34:17] But we do some things that are positive and we have to really remind ourselves that

[00:34:23] We are playing the hard game

[00:34:25] By having a job and doing your job every day

[00:34:29] It's easy, you have the pay at the end of the month

[00:34:31] But we don't, we don't know if we will be paid

[00:34:35] So this is really stressful and we have to be aware

[00:34:39] That it's not an easy path

[00:34:42] Oh yeah, and in so many aspects, it's like impossible even to picture it before you start

[00:34:48] You know, you have like, okay, you have to build a product

[00:34:51] That's a difficulty because even if you're good at your job

[00:34:54] Maybe as a software engineer, you know to do one job

[00:34:57] Now you need to do the whole job

[00:34:59] So you have to be like full stack more than you think or imagine

[00:35:03] Because you're managing everything

[00:35:04] You're managing servers, you're managing the code

[00:35:06] You're managing like the task

[00:35:07] You're managing all the other tasks

[00:35:10] So you're doing fucking every job

[00:35:12] But you have also to manage the admin

[00:35:14] You have to be sure like you're not doing shit

[00:35:16] You're legally, your business is illegal

[00:35:18] Illegal where you sell

[00:35:19] And trust me, this is a mess

[00:35:21] Like right now I'm not doing it correctly

[00:35:23] Because when you sell everywhere in the world

[00:35:26] You have to declare tax everywhere in the world

[00:35:28] And this is a mess to do that

[00:35:29] I tried to create like

[00:35:32] This month I was like off the threshold of UK

[00:35:35] And I tried to create a UK tax declaration thing

[00:35:41] I still didn't do it

[00:35:43] I was stuck in the form

[00:35:46] Like I didn't understand what I had to do

[00:35:48] And what they were asking

[00:35:49] And I asked like chat GPTO stuff

[00:35:51] And the answer was kind of weird

[00:35:53] And I was like

[00:35:55] What the fuck

[00:35:57] Just tell me like give me a tax number

[00:35:59] I tell you how much and we pay and that's it

[00:36:01] No, you have to have very broad question

[00:36:05] No

[00:36:06] But what you said is really

[00:36:09] Yeah, sorry I interrupted you

[00:36:11] No, no, no, no, go, go, go

[00:36:13] It's really important because I think

[00:36:15] On a lot of people's mind

[00:36:18] And I think it's developers

[00:36:20] And maybe a bit of marketing to sell

[00:36:23] But around this

[00:36:25] You have indeed

[00:36:26] You have to take care of the administrative

[00:36:28] Like today most of my morning was

[00:36:32] I wrote a contract for a company

[00:36:35] I had to put some invoices to my bank

[00:36:38] And yeah, this is something that are really

[00:36:43] Annoying

[00:36:44] Annoying

[00:36:45] But we have to do it because there is nothing

[00:36:48] No one will do for us

[00:36:51] Yeah, that's not like when you're an employee

[00:36:53] Some task you can do

[00:36:54] No, no, I give it to my n plus one

[00:36:57] Yeah, but here you are the n plus one

[00:37:01] So it's just you with you

[00:37:03] If you don't do it, that's your problem

[00:37:04] And if you forget that's still your problem

[00:37:06] No one is going to tell you

[00:37:08] You know, if you don't do like

[00:37:10] Things like legal requirement of your business

[00:37:12] And you forgot no one will come after you

[00:37:15] Until they came for a fine or something bad

[00:37:19] Like just as an example

[00:37:21] We were talking about the tax thing

[00:37:23] And this winter I was struggling so much mentally

[00:37:26] And stuff like that

[00:37:28] And I had to pay tax

[00:37:29] And I was like, I cannot look at me and stuff

[00:37:32] Because I'm already like so much underwear

[00:37:35] I could, I cannot look

[00:37:36] And in Estonia they are very very strict about tax

[00:37:41] If you don't pay tax on time

[00:37:43] They charge you like a fee every day

[00:37:47] Who grow if you don't pay

[00:37:49] So you have to be very careful about it

[00:37:51] Yeah, and I totally forgot

[00:37:53] And for me like I pay, you know

[00:37:55] It's just like a non-eventment paying tax

[00:37:58] And this month, like this week

[00:38:01] I received an email from my accountant

[00:38:04] They say, okay, because last year you forgot to pay tax for each day

[00:38:08] So now you have to pay 100 euros

[00:38:10] And if you don't, they will get it directly in your account

[00:38:13] I was like, what is, what?

[00:38:15] And I couldn't even understand what they were saying

[00:38:18] So I had to ask them like to understand

[00:38:19] And they explained me later

[00:38:21] Because last year you remember

[00:38:23] We asked you to pay tax three times

[00:38:26] And even with these three emails

[00:38:27] I didn't ever answer, I never look at it

[00:38:29] And then I have to pay like more tax because of that

[00:38:32] So it's not a lot, it's 100 euros

[00:38:34] But still, you have so many kinds of things like that

[00:38:37] In making a business

[00:38:38] Who's making like too complex

[00:38:41] Like, or complex

[00:38:43] Another point like people don't know

[00:38:45] Is when you create

[00:38:47] When you create a business

[00:38:48] You have a brand around this business

[00:38:50] For example, Idea Crea

[00:38:52] And this brand has to be protected

[00:38:54] Because if you don't protect it at one point

[00:38:57] Someone can protect it himself

[00:39:00] And then you cannot use your own name anymore

[00:39:03] And I'm like, fuck

[00:39:04] So I did that for Capgo

[00:39:06] Like recently because I saw in US

[00:39:08] Someone has the same name

[00:39:09] But it's capgo.ia

[00:39:11] Oh, okay

[00:39:12] So I had to trademark like two weeks ago

[00:39:15] I trademarked Capgo in US

[00:39:17] It cost me like 500 euros

[00:39:19] To do that, to learn about that

[00:39:21] To understand how to do that

[00:39:22] And then after I would have to go

[00:39:24] To contact the company and tell them

[00:39:26] Hey man, I have the trademark

[00:39:27] So can you fuck up?

[00:39:30] Yes, this is the annoying thing

[00:39:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah

[00:39:34] There are so many things like that

[00:39:37] And you don't want to deal with that

[00:39:38] But you have to

[00:39:39] Because if you don't

[00:39:40] Then at one point

[00:39:41] Someone is going to kill your business

[00:39:42] And it's just like that

[00:39:43] I think at one point

[00:39:44] You're just trying to don't die

[00:39:46] You know, you're not trying to create

[00:39:48] Your business

[00:39:49] You're just trying to don't die

[00:39:51] In so many aspects

[00:39:52] Okay, just a juristic aspect

[00:39:55] Exactly

[00:39:56] And you always have to think

[00:39:58] Like because you said

[00:39:59] You follow the trademark

[00:40:01] It's totally useless at the beginning

[00:40:03] Because you don't know if it works

[00:40:05] And at which point

[00:40:06] Yeah, don't do it before starting please

[00:40:08] Yes, I mean

[00:40:10] You can register when you make good money

[00:40:14] Because before this

[00:40:15] Otherwise you just change your name

[00:40:18] It's...

[00:40:18] But yeah, it's annoying

[00:40:20] But if you, for example

[00:40:21] Like at the beginning

[00:40:23] Your name is not a problem

[00:40:24] Because you're no one

[00:40:26] You're no one

[00:40:27] Even if you believe you are

[00:40:28] The smartest in the world

[00:40:29] You're no one

[00:40:29] And you don't do shit

[00:40:32] And we have to agree on that

[00:40:33] Everyone

[00:40:33] Like when we start with no one

[00:40:35] Even a new business

[00:40:36] When you have already a running business

[00:40:38] And that's okay

[00:40:39] And that takes time

[00:40:40] To create a brand

[00:40:41] To create a presence

[00:40:41] To create SEO

[00:40:42] To exist for users

[00:40:44] Like my brand

[00:40:45] Took like two years

[00:40:47] To exist like Capco

[00:40:48] Yes

[00:40:49] And now this brand exists

[00:40:50] And this is one of my assets

[00:40:52] Of my company

[00:40:53] And this asset has to be protected

[00:40:55] Otherwise someone can

[00:40:56] Install Kaboom name

[00:40:58] Do a website on it

[00:40:59] And install my whole SEO

[00:41:00] And if you trademark it

[00:41:01] Before me

[00:41:02] I'm fucked

[00:41:03] And that's bad

[00:41:04] But you have to care about that

[00:41:06] When you have already created a brand

[00:41:08] And an asset to protect

[00:41:09] You don't protect assets

[00:41:10] Who doesn't exist yet

[00:41:12] Yeah, that's this kind of thing

[00:41:13] Like you hate

[00:41:15] As entrepreneurs

[00:41:16] But you have to do it

[00:41:18] And you are the only person

[00:41:19] Who can do it

[00:41:20] So I'm not coding

[00:41:22] When I'm doing that

[00:41:23] I'm not doing marketing

[00:41:24] I'm just doing admin stuff

[00:41:26] And learning about

[00:41:28] For example

[00:41:29] In US

[00:41:30] You cannot trademark yourself

[00:41:31] In Europe

[00:41:32] You can trademark yourself

[00:41:33] So I created the trademark

[00:41:35] Like a year ago already

[00:41:36] And it's super easy

[00:41:37] And thanks to Europe

[00:41:38] I don't know why

[00:41:39] But we have like

[00:41:41] You can ask for a coupon

[00:41:42] A discount

[00:41:44] And you get refund

[00:41:45] Like 70% of the trademark

[00:41:46] As a startup

[00:41:48] Super nice

[00:41:49] Oh okay

[00:41:49] Okay

[00:41:49] If you don't know

[00:41:50] You have to fill the form

[00:41:51] In Europe

[00:41:52] Yeah, in Europe

[00:41:52] For the whole Europe

[00:41:53] Okay

[00:41:53] And also

[00:41:55] They offer you to refund

[00:41:57] Partially

[00:41:58] Of US

[00:41:59] Or anywhere in the world

[00:42:00] As a startup

[00:42:01] But I think it's like

[00:42:03] 50% or 30%

[00:42:05] But you have a timeframe

[00:42:06] To do it

[00:42:07] So I think I missed the timeframe

[00:42:08] I will not be able to be refund

[00:42:10] On the US one

[00:42:10] But in US

[00:42:12] I went to the

[00:42:14] So if you search online

[00:42:15] To trademark

[00:42:16] There are so many websites

[00:42:17] And if you look at

[00:42:19] The rating of the website

[00:42:20] Everyone says it's a scam

[00:42:22] So I was like

[00:42:23] Oh, okay

[00:42:24] If

[00:42:25] Do US as like

[00:42:26] Europe

[00:42:27] An official

[00:42:30] Website for trademark

[00:42:31] And of course they have

[00:42:32] So I start

[00:42:33] I register

[00:42:33] I spend like

[00:42:34] I think

[00:42:35] Two or three hours doing that

[00:42:36] Because first to register

[00:42:38] You need to create

[00:42:39] An identity

[00:42:39] In US

[00:42:40] With a system

[00:42:42] Where you need to call someone

[00:42:43] Validate your identity

[00:42:44] So it takes a long time

[00:42:46] They ask you many things

[00:42:47] In the trademark website

[00:42:48] I manage to have

[00:42:49] An identity

[00:42:50] Valid in US

[00:42:51] Blah blah blah

[00:42:52] Until I reach the point

[00:42:53] And they say

[00:42:53] Okay, what do you want to trademark?

[00:42:55] For which company?

[00:42:56] And say

[00:42:56] Okay, it's company

[00:42:57] Foreign company

[00:42:58] They say okay

[00:42:59] Are you in US?

[00:43:01] I'm like

[00:43:01] No

[00:43:02] And they say okay

[00:43:03] Now you need a lawyer

[00:43:04] From US

[00:43:06] Wow

[00:43:07] And you cannot register yourself

[00:43:09] I was like

[00:43:10] No fucking way

[00:43:11] Yeah

[00:43:12] So no one tell you this

[00:43:14] And this is the complexity

[00:43:15] Like you

[00:43:16] Yeah, yeah

[00:43:17] And I spend half a day

[00:43:18] You learn when you earn it

[00:43:19] We learn the hard way

[00:43:21] Yeah

[00:43:22] So then I had to find a website

[00:43:24] Which is not a scam

[00:43:26] To doing like

[00:43:27] The

[00:43:28] The trademark for me

[00:43:29] And I find one

[00:43:30] But some people were still saying

[00:43:33] It's a scam

[00:43:33] But most of them not

[00:43:34] So I was like

[00:43:35] Okay, maybe it's trustable

[00:43:36] And I got

[00:43:38] I got

[00:43:38] Yesterday

[00:43:39] I think

[00:43:40] The paper from

[00:43:41] Official from US

[00:43:42] Like I have created

[00:43:43] Not the trademark

[00:43:44] But I have created the request

[00:43:46] Because before you do

[00:43:48] There's also something

[00:43:49] I learned doing that

[00:43:50] Is like

[00:43:50] Trademark is not so easy

[00:43:51] It takes like six months

[00:43:52] Or eight months

[00:43:53] Because first you need the request

[00:43:55] And then

[00:43:55] People have

[00:43:56] The way to claim

[00:43:58] No, I have also this trademark

[00:44:00] Or I want also this trademark

[00:44:02] And so they are a whole process of like

[00:44:04] They declare first you want the trademark

[00:44:07] And then everyone can complain

[00:44:09] Or can say no

[00:44:10] I have it already

[00:44:10] Or whatever

[00:44:12] So it takes a long time

[00:44:13] So now I have this in US

[00:44:14] Like publicly

[00:44:16] Like I want this trademark

[00:44:17] And it will take like

[00:44:18] A piece of time

[00:44:20] To like validate it

[00:44:22] And like have other people complain

[00:44:24] Or brand close to

[00:44:26] For example in Capgo

[00:44:28] I have another company

[00:44:30] So the trademark

[00:44:32] Authority told me like

[00:44:33] They are Capco

[00:44:34] Which is a big

[00:44:35] A big company

[00:44:38] Worldwide

[00:44:38] And the name is very close

[00:44:40] So they could fill a form

[00:44:41] To say no

[00:44:42] My brand is too close to them

[00:44:44] So I don't have the right

[00:44:45] To do it

[00:44:46] I'm like oh no

[00:44:47] Come on please not

[00:44:48] And then I can appeal this

[00:44:50] For 2,000 euros

[00:44:51] I'm like oh my god

[00:44:54] Why is not so simple

[00:44:56] You know like the whole process

[00:44:57] Is like terrible

[00:44:58] So yeah

[00:45:00] So many things in the journey

[00:45:02] On our journey

[00:45:03] Like we don't talk

[00:45:04] And this is

[00:45:05] Oh yes

[00:45:05] But this will discourage people

[00:45:08] No

[00:45:08] But no this is something

[00:45:10] You have to be aware

[00:45:12] But it's not always easy

[00:45:15] But I think there's nothing you cannot

[00:45:19] You won't be blocked

[00:45:21] I mean I don't know how to say

[00:45:22] Like surmont

[00:45:23] If you know the English word

[00:45:25] You can overcome

[00:45:26] You can overcome

[00:45:28] You can overcome

[00:45:28] Yeah nothing

[00:45:28] Yeah

[00:45:29] Yeah everything

[00:45:31] Like

[00:45:32] Yeah

[00:45:33] And you when you create a company

[00:45:35] You

[00:45:35] You go into some community

[00:45:38] You join some communities

[00:45:40] Like we are on one

[00:45:42] Really

[00:45:43] Really small community

[00:45:45] And this is I think really

[00:45:46] Good for our confidence

[00:45:48] Like to have

[00:45:49] Some people who

[00:45:51] Who go through the same stage as you

[00:45:54] And you can just ask your question

[00:45:57] There's probably someone who you

[00:45:59] You

[00:46:00] Who knows the answer

[00:46:02] Yeah

[00:46:04] No definitely you can

[00:46:05] That's the good part of like

[00:46:07] Indie making

[00:46:07] And like what we have on Twitter

[00:46:09] And everywhere

[00:46:10] Like in different Discord

[00:46:11] Is like on Telegram for us

[00:46:14] Yeah I realize

[00:46:15] We have

[00:46:15] I have so many

[00:46:16] That you

[00:46:17] You can have help

[00:46:18] And you're not alone

[00:46:19] And I think one

[00:46:21] For me like doing the podcast

[00:46:22] Is also my way to not be alone

[00:46:24] And this is like

[00:46:25] I can share with you

[00:46:26] And anyone like

[00:46:27] Like what we struggle

[00:46:29] And ask questions about that

[00:46:30] And that's the beauty of it

[00:46:32] But yeah definitely

[00:46:34] One sentence

[00:46:35] I like to repeat myself

[00:46:36] Is if it was so easy

[00:46:38] Everyone will do it

[00:46:41] And this is not the case

[00:46:43] Like there are very few entrepreneurs

[00:46:44] When you start to be an entrepreneur

[00:46:46] When you look around you

[00:46:47] Most of people are not like you anymore

[00:46:49] Like it's

[00:46:50] For me I don't know for you

[00:46:51] Maybe in Paris is a bit better

[00:46:53] But here I find like two, three, four people

[00:46:57] I can resonate with

[00:46:59] And they are entrepreneurs

[00:47:00] And not good

[00:47:01] And not all are good

[00:47:02] You know like doing good

[00:47:04] I mean they are not like successful

[00:47:06] They are trying or struggling

[00:47:08] But on the few I find

[00:47:10] They are not so much like very, very huge

[00:47:12] Like I know one which is huge

[00:47:14] Because it started 20 years ago

[00:47:16] Here where I live in Madeira

[00:47:18] But otherwise the others are like

[00:47:21] Kind of same level as me

[00:47:22] Not really like big success or successful

[00:47:24] Yes totally

[00:47:26] Because you can compare with someone

[00:47:28] Who is doing multi-million dollar

[00:47:33] If it's not the same level

[00:47:34] Yeah yeah definitely

[00:47:36] When I talk with this guy

[00:47:38] He has a totally different problem

[00:47:40] Like basically one sentence

[00:47:42] He told me

[00:47:43] It would make me laugh a lot

[00:47:44] He said why are you making something like 8,000?

[00:47:46] Like why are you doing that?

[00:47:48] Like come to work with me

[00:47:49] I have business dying

[00:47:50] We make like millions

[00:47:51] And I don't know how to save them

[00:47:52] So help me saving them

[00:47:53] And it's way better

[00:47:54] I'm like wow

[00:47:55] So different problem

[00:47:57] Like your main problem

[00:47:58] Is to not lose money

[00:47:59] Because business are dying

[00:48:00] Because you don't know

[00:48:01] Your people left in the company

[00:48:03] Or stuff like that

[00:48:04] So you don't have the competencies

[00:48:05] To keep them anymore

[00:48:06] Like wow

[00:48:07] You're just like fighting

[00:48:08] More you grow

[00:48:09] And more you fight back about dying

[00:48:11] It's just what you're doing

[00:48:13] That's why big companies struggle

[00:48:14] To innovate and stuff like that

[00:48:16] Because there's so many things

[00:48:17] That can kill you

[00:48:18] Yes

[00:48:20] I believe also that's why

[00:48:22] Personally I want to stay like indie maker

[00:48:24] And not like make

[00:48:25] Million dollar company

[00:48:27] Because I believe

[00:48:28] Million dollar company came with

[00:48:30] Million problems

[00:48:30] And I want to limit

[00:48:32] Limit my number of problems

[00:48:33] To a certain level

[00:48:36] That's probably the case

[00:48:38] I can tell

[00:48:39] I never experienced this

[00:48:41] Yeah

[00:48:42] But do you

[00:48:43] Do you

[00:48:44] Do you have this way

[00:48:44] If you want to stay indie maker

[00:48:46] Or you want to create something huge

[00:48:48] What's your

[00:48:49] What do you aim for

[00:48:50] With Idea Crea

[00:48:53] I like the idea of

[00:48:54] Indie hacking

[00:48:55] But I mean

[00:48:57] If

[00:48:58] If I have like

[00:48:59] A lot of clients

[00:49:00] And for AI Crea

[00:49:02] That they want some specific

[00:49:03] Extra

[00:49:03] Of course I will have to

[00:49:05] Grow the team

[00:49:07] Like for the moment

[00:49:08] We are far

[00:49:09] But

[00:49:10] So

[00:49:12] I don't know

[00:49:14] I don't know the vision

[00:49:15] Like what does it say

[00:49:17] Like to be

[00:49:17] To stay indie hacker

[00:49:19] Or to

[00:49:19] You know

[00:49:21] Probably that

[00:49:22] If I grow it

[00:49:24] More so maybe there will be

[00:49:26] A team working on AI Crea

[00:49:27] But I won't

[00:49:29] I probably

[00:49:30] Won't stop to

[00:49:32] Create some projects

[00:49:33] On the side

[00:49:34] Because I like it

[00:49:35] Yeah for me

[00:49:36] For me it's the same

[00:49:37] I really like to create

[00:49:38] And I

[00:49:39] I think

[00:49:40] I've said that

[00:49:41] Like in the past

[00:49:42] But my favorite

[00:49:44] Journey

[00:49:44] Is the 0 to 1

[00:49:46] You know

[00:49:46] When you have nothing

[00:49:47] And it starts to exist

[00:49:49] That's

[00:49:50] That's so cool to do that

[00:49:51] The path from 1 to 100

[00:49:55] I'm learning to

[00:49:56] Appreciate it

[00:49:57] Right now

[00:49:58] Because CapGo

[00:49:59] Starts

[00:49:59] Like working now

[00:50:01] But this is so

[00:50:03] Different and less funny

[00:50:04] In a way you know

[00:50:05] Like now I'm like

[00:50:06] Okay how can I optimize

[00:50:08] My email opening

[00:50:10] Like okay

[00:50:11] How I can

[00:50:13] Like have less support

[00:50:14] You know it's just like

[00:50:16] Optimization of things

[00:50:17] And I see

[00:50:18] I have

[00:50:19] One guy

[00:50:20] Working with me

[00:50:21] My intern

[00:50:22] And he's like

[00:50:23] Really a guy from 0 to 1 as well

[00:50:25] Because of course

[00:50:27] I attract the same people as me

[00:50:28] And when I ask him like

[00:50:30] Hey can we optimize

[00:50:31] This kind of thing

[00:50:32] He's like

[00:50:32] Not interesting

[00:50:33] He's like

[00:50:34] I don't like that

[00:50:35] Yes

[00:50:36] Like can I create something new

[00:50:37] Yes

[00:50:38] It's so much funnier

[00:50:39] To create new

[00:50:40] And like create new things

[00:50:42] But more you grow in the business

[00:50:44] Less newness you will have

[00:50:46] And more it's like

[00:50:47] Making things work smoother

[00:50:49] Or keep them not dying

[00:50:52] It's like more legacy you have

[00:50:54] So you will keep creating projects

[00:50:56] And what's your

[00:50:57] What is the next project you're launching

[00:50:59] Or you're thinking to work on

[00:51:02] I don't know yet

[00:51:04] I mean

[00:51:05] I do have some ideas

[00:51:07] But I didn't really

[00:51:09] Start it to work on

[00:51:11] But I'm thinking on a

[00:51:14] On a product for

[00:51:15] People who run business

[00:51:17] Oh yes

[00:51:18] So yeah

[00:51:21] No more like an

[00:51:22] Affiliation

[00:51:23] With us

[00:51:24] But

[00:51:25] There is no

[00:51:27] I didn't really find

[00:51:28] Some good

[00:51:29] SaaS

[00:51:30] For affiliation

[00:51:31] For people who just started

[00:51:33] Because you have to pay

[00:51:35] Each time

[00:51:35] And I would like something more affordable

[00:51:37] That you

[00:51:38] You pay on me

[00:51:39] If you earn money

[00:51:41] So that's something

[00:51:42] I would like to do

[00:51:43] I think I found some

[00:51:44] But they are not really

[00:51:46] Like working well

[00:51:47] For example

[00:51:48] I have a rough Leo

[00:51:49] I think

[00:51:50] On my

[00:51:50] Yes but it's

[00:51:51] It's not anymore

[00:51:53] It doesn't exist anymore

[00:51:54] Really?

[00:51:55] Finally?

[00:51:56] Or you just say that

[00:51:57] Because you can't answer

[00:51:59] I mean

[00:52:00] I think it doesn't exist anymore

[00:52:02] Because I tried

[00:52:03] Like to contact

[00:52:04] And some people say it's dying

[00:52:06] So I don't know

[00:52:07] Yeah it's

[00:52:09] It's kind of

[00:52:09] Yeah I have it

[00:52:11] And

[00:52:12] And

[00:52:13] The support is unreachable

[00:52:15] The guy is not taking care of it

[00:52:16] Definitely

[00:52:18] But it still exists

[00:52:19] And it still can work

[00:52:21] If you manage to not have bugs like me

[00:52:24] But it should work

[00:52:26] And yeah

[00:52:27] This

[00:52:28] I agree

[00:52:29] This is like

[00:52:31] I hate that

[00:52:32] Like when people don't

[00:52:33] Take care of the things they sell

[00:52:35] Or just close it

[00:52:36] It would be better

[00:52:37] But letting die

[00:52:38] It's like

[00:52:40] So weird

[00:52:40] Yeah

[00:52:40] So just give in to someone else

[00:52:43] Or

[00:52:43] Like not giving

[00:52:44] But selling or whatever

[00:52:45] But yeah

[00:52:46] And it was

[00:52:47] I think it was open source at one point

[00:52:49] And they stopped to be open source

[00:52:52] The story of this software is like a bit weird

[00:52:54] Yeah I know it was

[00:52:56] Definitely

[00:52:56] Do an affiliate

[00:52:58] Do an affiliate thing better

[00:52:59] Please

[00:53:00] And there are something you can combine

[00:53:02] It's like do affiliation

[00:53:04] And also

[00:53:05] The

[00:53:06] Public rating

[00:53:07] You know

[00:53:08] This like a trust pilot for IndieMaker

[00:53:10] Would be like

[00:53:11] For me

[00:53:12] Super good

[00:53:13] Because like trust pilot

[00:53:14] And other kind of things

[00:53:15] Like G2

[00:53:16] And I don't know

[00:53:17] This is not really

[00:53:19] Look

[00:53:20] I don't understand the second one you said

[00:53:23] The

[00:53:23] For

[00:53:23] For

[00:53:24] IndieMakers

[00:53:25] Yeah yeah yeah

[00:53:26] The review system

[00:53:27] Okay

[00:53:29] But way better made

[00:53:30] You know right now

[00:53:32] Making a review system

[00:53:34] Is like

[00:53:35] You can send

[00:53:37] Your users to trust pilot

[00:53:39] To go

[00:53:39] To register themselves

[00:53:40] But you cannot for example

[00:53:42] Put in your project

[00:53:43] Directly like a mobile app

[00:53:45] You know

[00:53:45] Like rate us now

[00:53:46] And you click

[00:53:47] And the guy is auto registered

[00:53:48] To the website

[00:53:49] If he

[00:53:50] It isn't

[00:53:50] Or he clicks on the link

[00:53:51] To validate or whatever

[00:53:52] But something easy

[00:53:54] In your software to rate

[00:53:55] Will be like perfect for me

[00:53:56] And then it publishes on the website

[00:53:58] And they verify the email themselves

[00:54:00] Or whatever

[00:54:02] But yeah

[00:54:03] Right now

[00:54:04] The

[00:54:04] All this business of rating

[00:54:06] Are very old school

[00:54:07] And the website is like

[00:54:08] Discussing

[00:54:10] And yeah

[00:54:11] Definitely

[00:54:12] Something better could be done

[00:54:13] And cheaper

[00:54:14] Because when you start to look at the price of trust pilot

[00:54:16] You're like what?

[00:54:18] It's insane

[00:54:19] Yeah so I

[00:54:20] I didn't really have this in mind

[00:54:22] So

[00:54:23] I have a lot of ideas

[00:54:24] But review is not one

[00:54:26] I

[00:54:27] I mean I could think about it

[00:54:28] But I don't think it's in my

[00:54:30] I am

[00:54:31] I am pushing into everyone

[00:54:32] Because

[00:54:33] Yeah

[00:54:34] But I think

[00:54:35] Review system

[00:54:36] Is not something I

[00:54:38] I enjoy

[00:54:39] As a

[00:54:40] As a user

[00:54:41] Or as

[00:54:42] Yeah I don't know

[00:54:43] So I don't know

[00:54:44] That's why I'm not doing it myself

[00:54:46] So I don't think I want to

[00:54:46] Build

[00:54:47] Yes that's why

[00:54:50] I'm giving the baby to everyone who wants it

[00:54:54] Please

[00:54:54] If you listen to the podcast

[00:54:56] And you want to do it

[00:54:57] Pauline doesn't want

[00:54:58] Go for it

[00:55:00] Go for it

[00:55:01] And why

[00:55:01] Why then

[00:55:02] Affiliate is something you resonate with

[00:55:04] Why?

[00:55:05] Because this is something that you need on every SaaS

[00:55:08] I mean

[00:55:09] This is part of my strategy to have an affiliation program this time

[00:55:13] But each time if you have to pay a different SaaS

[00:55:20] Like you don't even know if your business will make money

[00:55:23] And you certainly need an affiliation to make money

[00:55:27] So

[00:55:28] Yeah I think

[00:55:29] It's really something that

[00:55:31] Is

[00:55:31] It's a cost

[00:55:32] And when you start

[00:55:33] You don't want cost everywhere

[00:55:35] When you make money

[00:55:36] It's okay

[00:55:37] You can

[00:55:37] You pay for software that brings money

[00:55:40] But when you don't have

[00:55:42] It's difficult

[00:55:43] And at the beginning

[00:55:44] You have to pay a lot of software

[00:55:45] So

[00:55:46] This is one I would like

[00:55:47] Not to pay

[00:55:48] Not because I build it

[00:55:49] But

[00:55:50] Also in the mindset

[00:55:51] I would like it to be

[00:55:52] To be free

[00:55:53] Until you make money

[00:55:55] Yeah I agree

[00:55:55] There are also something like

[00:55:57] I don't like with affiliate

[00:55:59] It's like

[00:55:59] Kind of

[00:56:00] There is a whole complexity to install that in your own software

[00:56:04] Because

[00:56:04] You have to have it since the first page

[00:56:07] So probably your landing page

[00:56:09] And then it has to be in your SaaS as well

[00:56:12] And that's

[00:56:13] That's like

[00:56:14] Factor for privacy

[00:56:16] There's so many matters

[00:56:17] Like because we're in Europe

[00:56:18] So

[00:56:19] This is definitely complex

[00:56:21] Like

[00:56:22] I would like something simpler

[00:56:24] Like

[00:56:24] You know in

[00:56:25] In Stripe

[00:56:26] They allow coupons

[00:56:27] So like

[00:56:29] If you do an affiliate system

[00:56:30] Or create like

[00:56:31] Automatic coupons in Stripe

[00:56:32] And then you just check the coupon check

[00:56:35] Like you do one coupon by user

[00:56:36] And

[00:56:37] And then you know

[00:56:38] Oh if this coupon got used

[00:56:40] It's because the affiliation work for one user

[00:56:43] It will be super simple

[00:56:44] You don't need to install this shit everywhere

[00:56:46] Just the guy

[00:56:47] They put their coupon as they want

[00:56:49] And

[00:56:50] If

[00:56:50] If they got someone

[00:56:53] Then give them a part of it

[00:56:54] Super easily

[00:56:56] Maybe you can do it in a week

[00:56:58] This

[00:56:58] You should do super simple coupon affiliation system

[00:57:02] On Stripe

[00:57:02] Yeah it could be

[00:57:04] I don't think

[00:57:05] I

[00:57:05] I don't really enjoy the coupon website

[00:57:08] Like for instance

[00:57:09] I know

[00:57:10] Because I saw it

[00:57:12] You know

[00:57:13] Sometimes I check my SEO

[00:57:14] And I saw the backlink

[00:57:16] And I saw that one website

[00:57:18] That was coupon something

[00:57:19] Offered

[00:57:21] Free

[00:57:23] Promotion

[00:57:24] Coupon

[00:57:24] For AIQ

[00:57:25] But this is bullshit

[00:57:28] I mean

[00:57:29] No way

[00:57:29] I don't have a partnership with them

[00:57:31] It's a fake promo code

[00:57:34] So people try

[00:57:35] And the try

[00:57:37] And the AIQ

[00:57:37] Doesn't work

[00:57:39] So

[00:57:39] Some people

[00:57:40] Just

[00:57:41] Deal website

[00:57:43] Like I said

[00:57:44] There is some

[00:57:45] A lot of coupons

[00:57:46] Etc

[00:57:46] I think

[00:57:47] I think

[00:57:47] It's a bet

[00:57:48] That they are trying to see a lot of offers

[00:57:50] And then probably

[00:57:51] That they reach out to every business

[00:57:53] To

[00:57:54] Deal

[00:57:54] To make some deal with them

[00:57:56] But

[00:57:57] No I don't have any of this

[00:57:58] And I was really surprised when I saw it

[00:58:01] I said

[00:58:01] Wow come on

[00:58:03] So

[00:58:04] Yeah yeah yeah

[00:58:05] That's bad

[00:58:06] That's bad

[00:58:06] Yeah

[00:58:07] That's bad

[00:58:08] But what I was saying is not to create like really

[00:58:10] Coupon in a way like

[00:58:11] To

[00:58:12] For this website

[00:58:13] It was more like

[00:58:14] Hacking the coupon system of Stripe

[00:58:16] To do affiliation

[00:58:17] To manage

[00:58:18] To do affiliation

[00:58:20] Then

[00:58:21] It gets easier to

[00:58:22] To build it

[00:58:23] And to

[00:58:24] To manage it

[00:58:26] Instead of asking the person to install on every step something

[00:58:29] He can just like

[00:58:30] Yeah

[00:58:31] Just with the coupon you generate for him

[00:58:34] But

[00:58:34] Yeah you're right

[00:58:35] Maybe then your coupon will be

[00:58:38] Will be

[00:58:38] Will happen in this kind of shitty website

[00:58:40] And that's you don't want

[00:58:42] I didn't know that exists still

[00:58:44] I wish this kind of business

[00:58:45] You know

[00:58:46] I don't know if you have that but

[00:58:48] There are some businesses I hate the way they execute or do things

[00:58:51] Yes

[00:58:52] So I'm kind of

[00:58:54] Kill them in my head

[00:58:55] So they don't exist you know

[00:58:57] I'm like no

[00:58:57] That's

[00:58:58] That's not possible in this world

[00:59:00] In my world

[00:59:01] Absolutely

[00:59:02] And there is some kind of search revenue that you don't like

[00:59:06] Or you would like to exist

[00:59:07] You know it

[00:59:09] Like

[00:59:09] Like the one you want for a trust pilot

[00:59:11] Yeah

[00:59:12] It's like

[00:59:12] It's not so difficult to build

[00:59:15] But

[00:59:16] It's really something that you don't want to do

[00:59:19] Yeah

[00:59:21] If only there was a better service for this

[00:59:24] Yeah

[00:59:25] Like for instance in France

[00:59:26] Like for

[00:59:27] When you want to

[00:59:28] When you want to have an appointment with a doctor

[00:59:31] There is a service for this

[00:59:33] Yeah

[00:59:34] And I don't like many things on it

[00:59:37] And it's very frustrating

[00:59:39] But they are like the biggest company

[00:59:42] So you can do anything on it

[00:59:44] Yeah like you talk about like Dr. Lib and stuff like that

[00:59:48] Yes

[00:59:49] Yeah

[00:59:50] You know funnily

[00:59:52] I was complaining a lot about like this kind of Dr. Lib and other names

[00:59:57] They are not the only ones

[00:59:58] They are just the bigger

[00:59:59] But I realize now I live in Portugal

[01:00:02] And there are no Dr. Lib or so whatever

[01:00:05] Like if you find a system who do online booking

[01:00:09] Most of the time they don't have any doctors on it or stuff

[01:00:12] It's insane

[01:00:12] I'm like how do I book a doctor?

[01:00:14] You go there and you go like all the way

[01:00:17] Like oh my god

[01:00:18] Really?

[01:00:20] But isn't it like a huge opportunity?

[01:00:23] Like don't you want to build a Dr. Lib for Portugal?

[01:00:27] Honestly no

[01:00:28] It's like trust me

[01:00:29] That's not the business I want

[01:00:31] You know I don't want to go to talk to every doctor

[01:00:34] And I think here

[01:00:35] If it doesn't work

[01:00:36] It's not because like they didn't think about it

[01:00:39] Because the platform exists but they are empty

[01:00:41] Or like the people are not taking care of it

[01:00:44] Here in Portugal I found

[01:00:47] Kind of people are old fashioned in many things

[01:00:50] So even if you want to book a taxi here in Madeira

[01:00:54] You go to the app and there is nothing in the app

[01:00:57] Like there is no one

[01:00:58] Even they allow taxi now on it

[01:01:00] They are not in the app

[01:01:01] And you're like so there is no taxi available?

[01:01:04] What the fuck?

[01:01:04] Then you call the guy from the taxi company

[01:01:08] They say yeah yeah I can send you someone in 5 minutes

[01:01:10] Do you want to go buy the app?

[01:01:12] I'm like what do you mean?

[01:01:15] Say okay I will call the guy

[01:01:16] He will start the app and then you can book him

[01:01:18] I'm like what?

[01:01:19] What the hell?

[01:01:21] Why he is not starting the app?

[01:01:23] Kind of old fashioned, they prefer to get caught

[01:01:26] Like oh my god

[01:01:27] This is possible?

[01:01:29] This exists?

[01:01:31] It's insane

[01:01:31] They just protest by not using technology

[01:01:34] And so I think the doctors do the same

[01:01:36] And that's very funny

[01:01:37] Like just like not going like further in the society

[01:01:43] Because just people are like nope, nope, no

[01:01:45] Don't care

[01:01:48] But yeah

[01:01:49] If I had Dr. Libby here I would not complain

[01:01:52] Because he is working

[01:01:55] Working

[01:01:57] Okay, so maybe that's an opportunity for people who listen to us

[01:02:02] Yeah

[01:02:02] Create a system

[01:02:06] I think what you could do if you really want to do it

[01:02:10] Is to hack the system, you know

[01:02:11] You put a booking system

[01:02:14] And you put a big loader when the people try to book

[01:02:17] And at this time you call the doctor with IA

[01:02:20] And ask him his availability

[01:02:22] And put it back to the software

[01:02:25] But in fact

[01:02:27] Yeah

[01:02:27] Go, go, go

[01:02:28] No, I think as a whole

[01:02:31] There is many hubs that now you can book appointment

[01:02:37] Like for instance

[01:02:39] We call it like for doctors

[01:02:40] For hubbers

[01:02:42] But also like even if it is for hairdresser

[01:02:47] Like now I don't call hairdresser

[01:02:49] To say, when do you have

[01:02:51] Oh, Monday

[01:02:52] Oh, better Tuesday, which time?

[01:02:54] Okay, let me see

[01:02:55] This is annoying

[01:02:56] I hate having this kind of call

[01:02:58] Yeah, and I found an app that is called 312

[01:03:02] So I can book hairdresser

[01:03:05] Yes

[01:03:06] And this is something I really enjoy

[01:03:08] This kind of business because no one loses time of

[01:03:12] I mean, of course it's less human

[01:03:14] You don't have someone

[01:03:15] But I don't consider having someone to phone and say

[01:03:19] Oh, when do you have a very human and very

[01:03:22] At value

[01:03:24] Yeah, there are no value

[01:03:26] There are value where you go there

[01:03:27] And the guy has the time to talk with you

[01:03:29] Or do things like to put a treatment

[01:03:31] But like the booking is not really valuable for me

[01:03:36] I will prefer the guy put on his website like a calendar or something

[01:03:40] And it's enough, you know

[01:03:41] Like you just book like 30 minutes or an hour slot

[01:03:44] And it will be good

[01:03:45] It's like, it's insane

[01:03:48] I mean, this kind of stuff still not be solved after so long, you know

[01:03:54] Especially here in Portugal

[01:03:55] I call and the guy don't even fucking answer

[01:03:58] So you have to go there and check

[01:04:00] There are people or not

[01:04:02] And he tells you, yeah, in one hour

[01:04:03] Like okay, what I'm doing for an hour now

[01:04:06] I stay around

[01:04:07] So each time I go to like haircuts or stuff

[01:04:09] I take my computer and like okay, I will work from there

[01:04:13] Until...

[01:04:14] You see my head?

[01:04:16] This is not haircut since long

[01:04:18] Because I came three times

[01:04:20] And three times was full as fuck

[01:04:21] So I gave up

[01:04:23] Wow

[01:04:24] Yeah, this is so bad

[01:04:27] But yeah, Portugal has many good things

[01:04:30] But booking is not one of them

[01:04:35] That's okay, you cannot have everything in a country

[01:04:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely

[01:04:41] I think at the beginning, you know, I think, you know, in France we like to complain about everything

[01:04:49] And I've seen so many people leaving France

[01:04:51] They're like, yeah, it's a bad country for whatever reason

[01:04:54] And then they go somewhere

[01:04:56] And after a while, if you talk to them again

[01:04:58] They remember like, oh, France was not so bad for that and that

[01:05:01] Because where I'm living, this is bad, this and this

[01:05:03] And then you realize like, I think everyone should like live abroad

[01:05:09] One year somewhere in their life

[01:05:11] Like it should be mandatory, you know, by the school of things

[01:05:15] Because it changed so much the value you have for your own country

[01:05:19] Right now, there are many things I hate from France still

[01:05:23] And I don't want to live there

[01:05:24] But I value it so much than before when I was living there

[01:05:27] And I was like, everything is shit in this country, like everyone is saying

[01:05:30] Now I'm like, yeah, look, look others and you will see

[01:05:34] I have a very funny example

[01:05:35] Like in France, like everyone say often

[01:05:38] Like our politics are bad or corrupted or whatever

[01:05:41] Well, get out of your country

[01:05:44] You will see what is corruption

[01:05:46] Here in Madeira, we got like 150 policemen

[01:05:50] They came from Lisbon because they couldn't trust any policemen in Madeira

[01:05:54] So they make them take a plane just for the policemen to go to Madeira

[01:06:00] To arrive in the morning to arrest the president of the island

[01:06:03] And the president of the city, both together at the same time

[01:06:06] At like 6am, because they were like, suspicion of corruption

[01:06:11] And they found them in their house, like a lot of like expensive things

[01:06:15] Like diamond in a safe, like 150k in the safe

[01:06:21] As well as like, guys

[01:06:23] And everyone is like talking about corruption here

[01:06:26] Because this is insane sometimes

[01:06:28] And the guy got released after like 72 hours, like magically

[01:06:33] It's like, oh, he...

[01:06:35] No explanation

[01:06:36] Yeah, things happen

[01:06:38] We have to release them

[01:06:41] It's so weird

[01:06:43] So, yeah

[01:06:44] So, yeah

[01:06:45] There are no much corruption in France compared to other places

[01:06:49] No, we...

[01:06:50] No, it's true that

[01:06:52] I don't think there...

[01:06:53] I mean, there is probably

[01:06:56] But...

[01:06:56] Yeah, of course

[01:06:58] It's not common

[01:06:59] Nothing is perfect nowhere

[01:07:01] And with power always comes corruption

[01:07:05] Like you will see it even at your own level

[01:07:08] Like...

[01:07:09] When you create a company

[01:07:10] You don't do things perfectly

[01:07:12] Sometimes it's like money company

[01:07:13] But there are something...

[01:07:15] So you manage and then you fix it

[01:07:17] Or sometimes you don't fix it and you do bad

[01:07:19] And you go to jail

[01:07:20] But most of people do fix it to don't do bad

[01:07:23] But that's happened even at your tiny level

[01:07:25] You do some things like which is corruption of your own company

[01:07:29] Because it's more convenient sometimes

[01:07:31] Or because you don't know some other times

[01:07:32] Or just because like you don't want to pay taxes

[01:07:35] You know, like you want to optimize in a way which is corruption

[01:07:38] So that's happened a lot

[01:07:40] And imagine at your tiny level of your tiny company

[01:07:43] And your tiny power what you're doing

[01:07:45] So imagine the guy is fucking like on top of everything in a country

[01:07:48] And 10-tap-tion is so big

[01:07:50] So probably they do a bit of shit

[01:07:54] And...

[01:07:56] I think...

[01:07:58] That's impossible to stop that

[01:08:01] But we can work on it like in the society to make it better

[01:08:05] And then like push people to be less corrupted

[01:08:07] By putting in better conditions and stuff like that

[01:08:10] But yeah, that's happened

[01:08:11] And that's normal

[01:08:12] The things is to not be abused

[01:08:15] And I think...

[01:08:16] For me we should have more rules

[01:08:21] Like treating people as human instead of machine

[01:08:23] Because right now we have a lot of law

[01:08:25] They are super strict about everything

[01:08:28] And that makes things more complex

[01:08:30] What I like for example lately

[01:08:32] Is the law that happened in France

[01:08:34] Is the right of forgiveness

[01:08:36] Like I think it's Macron did that or something

[01:08:38] So if you did something shitty in your company

[01:08:40] But you didn't know and you can prove you didn't know

[01:08:43] Like you were doing so much shit

[01:08:44] They can forgive you and just ask you to pay what you missed

[01:08:47] Without a big fine or like killing your company

[01:08:50] And I think that's what we should have also with politics

[01:08:53] And stuff like that in general

[01:08:55] It's like no one is perfect

[01:08:58] But we should just push people to get better

[01:09:01] Instead of telling them, oh you're a bad person

[01:09:04] Yeah, but then everyone will be a bad person at one point

[01:09:07] And you will have no one to do anything in this fucking world

[01:09:12] But for me the best alternative is to push people to improve

[01:09:14] Like okay, you were doing that bad, okay, next year you have to do less bad

[01:09:18] And every year like that

[01:09:20] And this is what we should do collectively

[01:09:21] And I think that's personally what I do with my company

[01:09:24] You know, like some stuff like for example tax

[01:09:27] I don't do it great, but each year I'm trying to do it better

[01:09:30] And to have more places in the world where I'm doing it correctly

[01:09:33] As they should and stuff like that

[01:09:35] Okay, I think we can go to my finishing question

[01:09:38] There was a cool conversation with you

[01:09:40] There are something I want to ask you

[01:09:43] What's your biggest success in IndieMaker?

[01:09:46] Has been in IndieMaker?

[01:09:49] Because we did the struggles

[01:09:50] What was our biggest success?

[01:09:51] I think it was

[01:09:56] Like to be able to

[01:09:58] Make enough money to

[01:10:01] Pay, to invest in

[01:10:03] Some people

[01:10:04] That was very good

[01:10:06] Before I had to do everything

[01:10:09] I think

[01:10:10] Myself or my co-founder

[01:10:12] Did everything

[01:10:14] And now

[01:10:16] Because we earn a bit of money

[01:10:17] We are able not to leave ourselves

[01:10:20] With the revenue

[01:10:22] But at least

[01:10:23] To pay some people to help us

[01:10:26] On some aspects

[01:10:27] Like for instance

[01:10:28] Someone that did

[01:10:30] Redesign totally the AI Crea website

[01:10:33] It wasn't planned actually

[01:10:36] Someone just reached out to me on Twitter

[01:10:37] And send a

[01:10:40] Screenshot of

[01:10:41] Hey, I made this design

[01:10:43] If you want

[01:10:43] I can do something even better

[01:10:46] If you like, you pay

[01:10:47] If you don't, I'm go

[01:10:49] And I say okay

[01:10:51] Well, I will pay because it's good

[01:10:54] And this is not something I wanted to invest money on

[01:10:58] But because it was there and it was good

[01:11:01] I said okay

[01:11:02] And I think it's cool to just

[01:11:05] Unload some

[01:11:06] Some stuff

[01:11:07] So I think this is one of

[01:11:10] Like I say, my big success

[01:11:12] And

[01:11:15] And yes, when you're

[01:11:16] When you're

[01:11:18] When you have some clients that just say

[01:11:20] Your product is good

[01:11:21] Like I said, the review before I had

[01:11:23] But for AI Crea also

[01:11:25] There is some clients

[01:11:26] They see AI Crea for the first time

[01:11:29] They try and say, wow, this is amazing

[01:11:31] And you don't know it could exist

[01:11:34] I even have a fun story of

[01:11:36] I went to a real estate agency in Paris

[01:11:40] And I went to see a guy

[01:11:42] And I just entered and I gave him my card

[01:11:46] And I said, this is a product I built

[01:11:49] It takes 30 seconds

[01:11:52] Three clicks to renovate a home

[01:11:55] I give him my card

[01:11:57] And if you want more

[01:11:59] Then just call me

[01:12:00] And I just left

[01:12:02] And he said, okay, okay

[01:12:04] You should, 30 seconds, okay, okay, ciao, ciao

[01:12:08] And so I left

[01:12:09] And then he

[01:12:11] Like 30 seconds later

[01:12:13] And then after a minute later

[01:12:14] He just ran on the street to find me

[01:12:17] He just went, sorry, sorry

[01:12:19] You said it takes 30 seconds

[01:12:21] Can I just see

[01:12:24] Because I have one minute

[01:12:26] So we can do it

[01:12:27] And so that was very fun

[01:12:30] And I think this is a success

[01:12:31] Because people realize that it can bring them value

[01:12:36] Yeah, that's a super cool story

[01:12:38] Thanks for that

[01:12:39] It's so cool

[01:12:39] Like you guys run after you

[01:12:40] It's like, okay, if it's fast, let's do it

[01:12:43] Yeah, this is fun

[01:12:44] And actually I never

[01:12:45] I never shared this anecdote before

[01:12:47] But I should because it's very fun

[01:12:49] Yeah, yeah, tweet it, tweet it

[01:12:51] And this guy is a client now?

[01:12:53] Yes, he's a client now

[01:12:56] Amazing

[01:12:56] Yeah, that's a very good story

[01:12:57] Like, it's perfect

[01:12:59] And you do that often?

[01:13:01] To go like directly to agency

[01:13:03] To talk to them?

[01:13:04] To leave your card

[01:13:05] And tell them you're doing that?

[01:13:07] Not often, but

[01:13:08] Because I live in a place

[01:13:11] And I already saw all of the agencies

[01:13:14] But when

[01:13:17] Yeah, when I'm on holidays

[01:13:18] Or weekends

[01:13:19] Or in a new street

[01:13:21] And I have some minutes I can spend

[01:13:23] I go visit them, yeah

[01:13:26] Ah, okay

[01:13:27] And it's like more opportunistic approaches

[01:13:29] Like each time you have to do something

[01:13:31] On the way, like

[01:13:32] Oh, if I can do a stop

[01:13:33] And earn a client, it's cool

[01:13:36] Yeah, because it's very time consuming

[01:13:38] I mean, I could do this

[01:13:39] But first, I'm not a

[01:13:41] Sales person

[01:13:42] Yeah, I don't like

[01:13:44] I don't like to have to say

[01:13:46] Like, hey, this is very cool

[01:13:48] Yeah, I like your approach

[01:13:50] It's like, hey, I'm doing that

[01:13:51] If you want it, you can take it

[01:13:52] I'm leaving, bye

[01:13:55] Exactly

[01:13:55] Like super quick

[01:13:56] And if they are like interested

[01:13:57] You know, otherwise

[01:13:58] They leave it

[01:13:59] The car, they die on the desk

[01:14:01] And it's okay

[01:14:02] You don't like bother them too much

[01:14:04] And you're not like doing a sales speech

[01:14:06] Like super annoying

[01:14:07] I would like definitely

[01:14:09] Like be impossible for me

[01:14:11] Like what you're doing

[01:14:12] I could do

[01:14:12] If my business was easy to find in the street

[01:14:15] The guy, my client

[01:14:17] But like doing sales speech

[01:14:19] Like going to people and trying to sell them

[01:14:21] It's like I've done that in my life

[01:14:23] I try and it's horrible

[01:14:24] I hate this feeling

[01:14:26] I feel like

[01:14:27] In an exam, you know

[01:14:29] Each time or something

[01:14:31] Yeah

[01:14:34] I mean you have to

[01:14:36] To be able to face rejection

[01:14:38] When you do it

[01:14:39] And I don't like this

[01:14:41] Yeah, I mean

[01:14:42] It's really annoying

[01:14:44] It's even more than rejection

[01:14:46] It's like

[01:14:47] Because, you know

[01:14:49] Asking someone for a date

[01:14:51] Or something like that

[01:14:52] You have, I think

[01:14:54] More chance than sales speech

[01:14:55] Like when you do sales

[01:14:57] It's really like

[01:14:57] You know, you go to bother someone

[01:14:59] Yeah

[01:15:00] For example, if you go on a date with someone

[01:15:02] You both agree to go there

[01:15:04] But if you move to the place of the people

[01:15:07] And they didn't ask for it

[01:15:08] Like it's horrible

[01:15:10] Like now I'm doing sales call

[01:15:12] Where people book me

[01:15:13] So I know they want to know about the product

[01:15:16] So I'm not trying to sell them anything

[01:15:17] I'm just like answering the question

[01:15:19] And show the best of my product

[01:15:22] And that I like

[01:15:24] Because I get great feedback

[01:15:25] I'm not selling

[01:15:26] I'm not pushing them to do anything

[01:15:28] And I enjoy also

[01:15:29] Get some feedback

[01:15:30] So they can improve my landing page

[01:15:32] And stuff like that

[01:15:32] But doing cold email

[01:15:34] Or cold call or stuff

[01:15:35] Where you like push the door of someone

[01:15:37] Who didn't ask anything

[01:15:38] I hate that

[01:15:39] Like I hate when someone do it to me

[01:15:41] So I couldn't do that to anyone

[01:15:43] I don't know for you

[01:15:43] Do you do like outreach?

[01:15:46] Cold outreach?

[01:15:48] I tried a bit with mating

[01:15:50] But I don't really like this approach

[01:15:54] Yeah, it's

[01:15:55] So

[01:15:55] Yeah

[01:15:56] I hate when people do it too

[01:15:58] Yeah, same

[01:16:00] Especially by phone

[01:16:01] I hate when I receive some

[01:16:04] Phone calls

[01:16:06] Because I see a number

[01:16:07] I don't know if it's someone

[01:16:09] I don't know if it's a client or something

[01:16:10] I answer and do

[01:16:12] Hey, do you want

[01:16:13] Wait for a second

[01:16:14] Yes

[01:16:15] Really?

[01:16:17] Are there really persons

[01:16:18] That buy stuff like that?

[01:16:21] That say

[01:16:21] Oh, I have a

[01:16:23] Okay, I will wait

[01:16:24] No, that's not it

[01:16:26] I really don't understand how this business succeeds

[01:16:29] Like how

[01:16:30] Like you can pay so many people

[01:16:33] Calling so many people

[01:16:34] And that works

[01:16:36] Like

[01:16:37] That's really like out of my mind for me

[01:16:39] Like every cent counts

[01:16:40] I don't know

[01:16:41] They probably sell shit like so expensive

[01:16:43] Compared to

[01:16:44] What they cost

[01:16:45] I don't know

[01:16:46] No, even because we do software

[01:16:48] Software is supposed to have the best margin in the world

[01:16:50] I have good margin

[01:16:51] And I cannot pay people to

[01:16:53] Fucking

[01:16:54] Call

[01:16:55] Like a thousand of people a day

[01:16:56] It's like no

[01:16:57] And I will never do that

[01:16:59] Even if my business explodes

[01:17:01] It's like

[01:17:03] It's so bad

[01:17:04] Let's go to my

[01:17:05] To my finishing question

[01:17:06] I was supposed to go

[01:17:07] Because we deviated

[01:17:08] But that was cool

[01:17:09] Thanks for the

[01:17:10] The little story

[01:17:11] Do you have something you will wish

[01:17:14] We told you

[01:17:14] Before you started your journey?

[01:17:18] Yes, but

[01:17:20] People told me

[01:17:21] So does it count?

[01:17:23] Yeah, this is always

[01:17:24] Always like that

[01:17:24] You know, my second question after that

[01:17:26] Is like

[01:17:27] If we will told you

[01:17:28] You will listen

[01:17:28] And this is like that

[01:17:29] So go for it

[01:17:32] Yes, so

[01:17:33] At the beginning

[01:17:34] When I do entrepreneurship

[01:17:36] I built

[01:17:38] Some

[01:17:39] Like a product

[01:17:40] And then

[01:17:41] I created

[01:17:43] Facebook page

[01:17:44] And Instagram page

[01:17:45] Stuff like that around it

[01:17:46] So I

[01:17:47] A lot of things

[01:17:49] But

[01:17:49] I had no clients

[01:17:50] Like for Cryptopy

[01:17:52] Like my crypto trading system

[01:17:54] I created everything

[01:17:56] And I had no clients

[01:17:57] So at the end

[01:17:58] What happened?

[01:17:58] I trashed everything

[01:18:00] So

[01:18:02] I

[01:18:03] After this

[01:18:04] I had the

[01:18:05] Great idea

[01:18:06] To create

[01:18:07] Crypto games

[01:18:09] Like

[01:18:10] Like you could

[01:18:12] Play some games

[01:18:14] Against someone

[01:18:15] And the one we won

[01:18:16] We win

[01:18:17] We'll win

[01:18:18] We'll earn some crypto

[01:18:20] That was my super idea

[01:18:22] I said

[01:18:22] I will do this

[01:18:23] And I will be really rich

[01:18:24] So

[01:18:25] But

[01:18:25] I

[01:18:26] I couldn't do this

[01:18:28] Alone

[01:18:29] Or just with my co-founder

[01:18:31] So I called a friend

[01:18:33] A friend

[01:18:33] It's Thibaut Maker

[01:18:35] It's

[01:18:36] You know him

[01:18:37] Yeah

[01:18:38] So it's a guy

[01:18:39] Very successful

[01:18:40] But actually

[01:18:41] I had no idea

[01:18:43] He was successful

[01:18:44] Because I knew him

[01:18:45] From engineering school

[01:18:47] He's a friend

[01:18:47] Oh you?

[01:18:48] And yes

[01:18:49] And

[01:18:50] And

[01:18:51] We

[01:18:52] We were in the same

[01:18:54] Like

[01:18:55] I'm gonna say

[01:18:55] Association

[01:18:57] I don't know if it's

[01:18:58] English word

[01:18:59] But

[01:19:00] A group of

[01:19:02] Students

[01:19:04] With a purpose

[01:19:06] And the purpose was to

[01:19:08] To

[01:19:08] To do parties

[01:19:09] No

[01:19:10] Not exactly

[01:19:12] The opposite actually

[01:19:13] It was to work with companies

[01:19:14] To create

[01:19:15] Like it was kind of a freelancing

[01:19:17] Ah

[01:19:18] It's the startup school kind of

[01:19:21] I forgot the name

[01:19:23] It's a

[01:19:25] It's a

[01:19:25] Junior entrepreneur

[01:19:26] Yes

[01:19:27] Yes

[01:19:28] So we

[01:19:29] We were

[01:19:31] So

[01:19:33] Yes we were into this

[01:19:34] I know how he is

[01:19:36] He's full of ideas

[01:19:37] He's very smart

[01:19:38] So

[01:19:40] When I wanted to build this business of crypto with my co-founder

[01:19:44] I said okay

[01:19:45] Let's call Tibo because I'm sure he could be good with this and maybe he will be happy to join

[01:19:55] But I had no idea at this time that he already had a very very profitable business

[01:20:01] So of course

[01:20:01] He didn't care about it

[01:20:04] But what he taught me that day

[01:20:06] Hey do you want my starting project?

[01:20:07] Do you want to join my starting project?

[01:20:10] Why?

[01:20:11] Do you want to join my failed

[01:20:13] Yeah but

[01:20:14] I mean we were

[01:20:16] I didn't see him for a long time because he was abroad

[01:20:19] So

[01:20:20] I didn't know this

[01:20:22] Life

[01:20:23] Life

[01:20:23] Busy life

[01:20:24] Like everyone else

[01:20:26] By the way

[01:20:27] I had it in the podcast not the English one but in the French one before

[01:20:31] When I was doing in French

[01:20:32] He came to the podcast long ago

[01:20:35] Ah okay

[01:20:35] Didn't know

[01:20:36] Maybe I should ask him to comment

[01:20:38] So he told me

[01:20:40] One of his advice was

[01:20:41] Okay

[01:20:42] It's cool to

[01:20:44] Build business and have this page

[01:20:46] But

[01:20:48] What is in common between all projects?

[01:20:51] It's you

[01:20:52] So I say

[01:20:53] Just capitalize on yourself

[01:20:55] And I really think about it and say

[01:20:57] Yes that's true

[01:20:58] If people follow me instead of following a company

[01:21:03] The projects

[01:21:03] Yeah

[01:21:03] And by the way

[01:21:05] Companies are usually way less things than the creators

[01:21:12] Like the founders

[01:21:13] Because founders are persons

[01:21:14] They have a

[01:21:16] They are real persons

[01:21:17] So people prefer to follow real persons

[01:21:20] And companies that say

[01:21:21] Yeah I have a new car

[01:21:22] New car

[01:21:23] New car with new features

[01:21:24] And blah blah blah

[01:21:25] Yeah

[01:21:26] So that's what I did

[01:21:27] On Twitter

[01:21:28] I started Twitter

[01:21:31] Um

[01:21:32] Oh that's because of him?

[01:21:34] Yes

[01:21:34] Ah that's cool

[01:21:37] I don't know if he's aware really of this

[01:21:39] I will send him the podcast

[01:21:41] It's like

[01:21:42] We were talking about you

[01:21:44] Yeah

[01:21:45] But um

[01:21:46] Yeah I started

[01:21:47] And actually I don't

[01:21:49] I didn't even know his business was

[01:21:51] Something

[01:21:52] I mean he told me he had a business on Twitter

[01:21:54] But I didn't

[01:21:56] I didn't have the right name

[01:21:58] So he said Twitter

[01:21:59] But I didn't know how to write it

[01:22:01] So I didn't know what it was

[01:22:03] But yes I started

[01:22:04] To tweet everyday

[01:22:05] And then I saw the progression

[01:22:07] And people followed me

[01:22:08] And actually when people follow you

[01:22:11] And engage you

[01:22:11] You have a lot of opportunities

[01:22:13] And um

[01:22:14] And that's I think

[01:22:15] It's really great

[01:22:16] Because now

[01:22:18] When I start a new business

[01:22:19] I'm not talking to the void

[01:22:21] I have an audience

[01:22:23] I can share my business

[01:22:25] And they can

[01:22:26] Tell me some feedbacks

[01:22:28] And but also a side of business

[01:22:30] When I have questions like

[01:22:31] Oh I'm stuck at this

[01:22:32] Do you know someone

[01:22:33] That can help

[01:22:34] There is always people

[01:22:35] To help

[01:22:37] And this is very very valuable

[01:22:40] It's not something

[01:22:41] Like

[01:22:43] I wasn't comfortable

[01:22:44] At this before

[01:22:45] Because I say okay

[01:22:47] What can I tweet

[01:22:48] I don't know

[01:22:49] I'm nobody

[01:22:51] But actually no

[01:22:52] I mean I'm nobody

[01:22:54] But I'm somebody

[01:22:55] I mean I have a story

[01:22:57] And we all have

[01:22:59] Yes there are people

[01:23:01] Of course

[01:23:01] They always have

[01:23:03] People more experience

[01:23:06] In some domains

[01:23:07] But there is also

[01:23:09] Some people

[01:23:09] Who know less than you

[01:23:10] So you always have

[01:23:12] Something interesting

[01:23:13] To share

[01:23:13] And that's how I started

[01:23:15] And I think

[01:23:16] That's something

[01:23:16] Very valuable

[01:23:18] So thank you Thibaut

[01:23:19] If you listen to this

[01:23:21] And thank you you

[01:23:22] Because like I really

[01:23:23] Like what you share

[01:23:23] And I think you're on this podcast

[01:23:25] Because I like what you share

[01:23:26] On Twitter

[01:23:27] Okay

[01:23:28] Thank you

[01:23:29] So that has worked

[01:23:30] Thank you Thibaut

[01:23:33] You just make me realize

[01:23:35] Like I took a note

[01:23:36] Often in the podcast

[01:23:37] I have notes

[01:23:38] Of things like

[01:23:38] Good idea and stuff

[01:23:39] And you say like

[01:23:41] About like

[01:23:42] The personal brand

[01:23:43] And that's something

[01:23:43] I do already for the emails

[01:23:45] Like emails

[01:23:46] Are very personal

[01:23:47] The Discord is very personal

[01:23:48] But the website

[01:23:49] It isn't

[01:23:50] So I think I will put

[01:23:51] My fucking face on it

[01:23:52] At one point

[01:23:52] You know

[01:23:53] When you scroll it's like

[01:23:54] Hey I'm Martin

[01:23:55] I'm the co-founder

[01:23:56] The founder of

[01:23:57] I don't know

[01:23:59] Of co-founder

[01:23:59] The founder of

[01:24:00] Of Capgo

[01:24:01] And like

[01:24:01] Some text about

[01:24:03] About the things

[01:24:04] Like I'm taking it personally

[01:24:06] That's my full time job

[01:24:07] And stuff like that

[01:24:08] To help people

[01:24:09] I think

[01:24:10] That's one of the value

[01:24:11] Of my business

[01:24:12] And of

[01:24:13] Indie Maker business

[01:24:14] Is like

[01:24:14] Often like

[01:24:15] When you have a problem

[01:24:16] You talk to the founders

[01:24:17] Like because they are not

[01:24:19] A big team

[01:24:19] And stuff like that

[01:24:20] So I found like

[01:24:22] This is way more valuable

[01:24:23] Than having someone

[01:24:24] In the support

[01:24:25] With like

[01:24:25] Not tech people

[01:24:26] Don't understand your problem

[01:24:27] Like

[01:24:28] I think yesterday

[01:24:29] I got

[01:24:30] I got this from

[01:24:32] Resend

[01:24:32] Resend is a

[01:24:33] You know

[01:24:35] SMTP

[01:24:35] Like for startup

[01:24:36] But they

[01:24:37] They're kind of growing

[01:24:38] So now they are like

[01:24:39] Support people

[01:24:40] And I ask a question

[01:24:42] Because

[01:24:42] It was a bug

[01:24:43] In the protocol

[01:24:44] Like something was not

[01:24:45] Not working as expected

[01:24:46] And the guy from support

[01:24:48] Is not tech people

[01:24:48] He's not

[01:24:49] Doesn't know the product

[01:24:49] And everything

[01:24:50] So he just answered me

[01:24:51] Something who was in the documentation

[01:24:53] Where I already checked it

[01:24:55] And the way I was talking

[01:24:56] You could see

[01:24:57] I checked things before

[01:24:59] But he doesn't know much

[01:25:01] And he's like

[01:25:02] A super person

[01:25:03] So he's just answered

[01:25:03] Something generally

[01:25:04] And more you get

[01:25:05] Bigger company

[01:25:06] More the support

[01:25:07] Is like that

[01:25:08] And it's useless

[01:25:08] You keep re-explaining

[01:25:10] Your problem over and over

[01:25:11] To different people

[01:25:11] Until you find

[01:25:13] They find inside the company

[01:25:15] The right people

[01:25:15] You should talk to

[01:25:18] And that's

[01:25:19] That's like

[01:25:20] So much time lost

[01:25:21] Where every time

[01:25:23] I'm dealing with

[01:25:24] Indie maker

[01:25:24] He's like

[01:25:25] Or he doesn't answer

[01:25:27] He's dead

[01:25:27] Like in Refleo

[01:25:28] Or otherwise

[01:25:29] His answer

[01:25:30] And the problem

[01:25:30] Is fixed super fast

[01:25:31] Or I have a solution

[01:25:32] Super fast

[01:25:33] And I love that

[01:25:34] It's like

[01:25:35] Yeah

[01:25:35] Instantly

[01:25:36] Push to prod

[01:25:38] Fix your problem

[01:25:38] Other questions

[01:25:40] Like oh

[01:25:41] Amazing

[01:25:41] Like five seconds

[01:25:42] Things

[01:25:44] Something strange

[01:25:46] About founder

[01:25:47] That disappeared

[01:25:47] I

[01:25:49] I realized

[01:25:51] Because with

[01:25:52] Next year's story

[01:25:54] My board

[01:25:54] Operate for

[01:25:55] Characterism

[01:25:56] I

[01:25:57] I created a demo

[01:25:58] Of

[01:25:59] I exposed some SaaS

[01:26:00] And I have

[01:26:01] Affiliation link

[01:26:02] On it

[01:26:03] And someone

[01:26:04] Visited the demo

[01:26:06] And bought

[01:26:07] Bought a product

[01:26:09] On it

[01:26:09] So I

[01:26:10] Have the commission

[01:26:11] Shared with me

[01:26:12] It was in June

[01:26:14] Exactly

[01:26:15] Because what happened

[01:26:18] I

[01:26:18] I just thought about it

[01:26:19] I think yesterday

[01:26:21] And I visited the website

[01:26:22] To be paid

[01:26:23] To contact the guy

[01:26:25] Yeah

[01:26:25] But he

[01:26:26] Doesn't exist anymore

[01:26:27] I mean

[01:26:28] The website

[01:26:29] His website

[01:26:30] Is

[01:26:31] Offline

[01:26:32] So I don't know

[01:26:33] What happened

[01:26:33] Is there something

[01:26:35] That happened to him

[01:26:36] And I really hope

[01:26:37] It doesn't

[01:26:38] But either

[01:26:39] Why would he

[01:26:40] Shut

[01:26:41] Shut

[01:26:43] Service

[01:26:43] If he brings

[01:26:45] Clients

[01:26:45] Because at least

[01:26:47] I bring one

[01:26:47] Client for him

[01:26:48] So I guess

[01:26:49] There was some

[01:26:50] Others

[01:26:50] So really

[01:26:52] That was strange

[01:26:54] Yeah

[01:26:54] No that's

[01:26:55] That's very strange

[01:26:56] I think

[01:26:56] That's one of the

[01:26:57] Things I'm

[01:26:57] Fighting

[01:26:59] With

[01:26:59] You know

[01:27:01] I have

[01:27:01] Like

[01:27:02] SMBs

[01:27:03] But I have also

[01:27:03] Like big corporate

[01:27:04] Now using Capgo

[01:27:05] And the most

[01:27:06] Question of big corporate

[01:27:07] Is like

[01:27:08] Okay

[01:27:08] How do we know

[01:27:09] Tomorrow you will

[01:27:10] Still exist

[01:27:10] And you will not

[01:27:11] Disappear

[01:27:11] Die

[01:27:12] Die

[01:27:12] Or something

[01:27:13] And this is a tough

[01:27:15] Question as an indie maker

[01:27:16] Me

[01:27:16] I have luck

[01:27:17] Because like

[01:27:18] The whole product

[01:27:18] Is open source

[01:27:19] So I can say

[01:27:19] You know

[01:27:20] You don't care

[01:27:21] If I die

[01:27:21] You just copy paste

[01:27:22] The code

[01:27:23] You have it

[01:27:23] It's public

[01:27:25] And you're good

[01:27:25] And they're like

[01:27:26] Oh cool

[01:27:28] But otherwise

[01:27:28] I think

[01:27:29] Like

[01:27:29] If you're indie maker

[01:27:31] It will be hard

[01:27:32] To sell to big corporate

[01:27:35] Saying you're indie maker

[01:27:36] Because this is a risk

[01:27:37] For them

[01:27:38] Like this happened

[01:27:39] And they're like

[01:27:39] For them

[01:27:40] Integrator solution

[01:27:41] Takes more time

[01:27:42] So they have to be careful

[01:27:43] About the thing

[01:27:45] And you cannot like

[01:27:46] Live in one week

[01:27:48] From another

[01:27:48] Or disappear

[01:27:49] From a week

[01:27:51] To another

[01:27:52] Even for us

[01:27:53] It's a pain

[01:27:54] Like when

[01:27:54] You know

[01:27:55] You don't get

[01:27:55] Your commission

[01:27:56] Or

[01:27:57] Or me

[01:27:57] For a flea

[01:27:58] The guy don't answer

[01:27:59] Like I had the bug

[01:28:00] For weeks

[01:28:00] And I think

[01:28:01] It took him

[01:28:02] Six months

[01:28:03] To answer

[01:28:03] I was like

[01:28:04] What the fuck

[01:28:05] I give up on the idea

[01:28:06] Of doing affiliation

[01:28:07] And the guy answer

[01:28:08] I was like

[01:28:09] Okay

[01:28:11] Yeah

[01:28:12] Yeah

[01:28:12] That's insane

[01:28:13] But yeah

[01:28:14] Do you have a favorite quote?

[01:28:15] Oh

[01:28:15] I had one

[01:28:17] It can be

[01:28:18] Yeah

[01:28:20] It's

[01:28:20] It's

[01:28:20] Long time

[01:28:21] I didn't

[01:28:22] Think about quote

[01:28:23] But there is one

[01:28:24] I like

[01:28:26] It's

[01:28:28] No

[01:28:28] I have to think

[01:28:29] It's in English

[01:28:30] But it

[01:28:31] It said like

[01:28:34] Aim for stars

[01:28:35] No

[01:28:37] Aim for the moon

[01:28:38] And you end up

[01:28:38] In the stars

[01:28:39] Yes

[01:28:39] Thank you

[01:28:41] Yes

[01:28:42] It's a very cool one

[01:28:43] I really like it

[01:28:44] I think I said it

[01:28:45] To my partner yesterday

[01:28:46] She was like

[01:28:47] Struggling

[01:28:48] Because she's also

[01:28:49] Doing entrepreneurship

[01:28:50] Journée

[01:28:50] And it's

[01:28:51] It's like

[01:28:51] It's not easy

[01:28:53] Every day

[01:28:53] Especially at the beginning

[01:28:55] Like she's only

[01:28:56] One year in

[01:28:57] So you know

[01:28:58] The first year

[01:28:58] Is like

[01:28:59] Shit show

[01:28:59] And I told her

[01:29:01] That yesterday

[01:29:01] She was like

[01:29:02] Okay

[01:29:03] Yeah

[01:29:04] It's a metaphor

[01:29:05] But I like it

[01:29:06] Because

[01:29:07] Even when you fail

[01:29:09] Like you

[01:29:09] You learn so many things

[01:29:11] And it will help you

[01:29:13] To

[01:29:13] I mean

[01:29:14] Not in the court

[01:29:14] But when you

[01:29:16] Get a lot

[01:29:17] No

[01:29:18] I agree

[01:29:19] Like anything you're doing

[01:29:21] That gives you

[01:29:22] Like

[01:29:23] More value

[01:29:24] In this world

[01:29:25] And you just

[01:29:26] Have to understand

[01:29:27] How to package it

[01:29:28] Maybe you will

[01:29:28] After your project

[01:29:30] Failed

[01:29:31] Or doesn't work

[01:29:32] Or whatever

[01:29:32] Maybe you will

[01:29:33] Do entrepreneurship

[01:29:33] Again

[01:29:34] And you will

[01:29:35] You will do

[01:29:36] Every steps

[01:29:37] You did before

[01:29:38] Way faster

[01:29:39] Or maybe you will not

[01:29:40] But then you will

[01:29:41] Join a company

[01:29:42] And help them

[01:29:43] Because you have

[01:29:44] Done this path

[01:29:44] You have done

[01:29:45] Many struggles

[01:29:45] So you will

[01:29:47] Stop to be

[01:29:47] Like a

[01:29:48] Shitty employee

[01:29:49] Who don't know

[01:29:50] Entrepreneurship is

[01:29:51] You are entrepreneur now

[01:29:52] Or you have been entrepreneur

[01:29:52] So then

[01:29:54] Your proposition

[01:29:55] On everything

[01:29:56] Will be

[01:29:56] With the entrepreneur mindset

[01:29:57] And it will be

[01:29:58] Way better

[01:29:58] Because you understand

[01:30:00] Business path

[01:30:00] So even

[01:30:02] If you like

[01:30:02] Give up

[01:30:03] On to entrepreneur

[01:30:04] At one point

[01:30:05] And go back

[01:30:05] To business

[01:30:06] You will be

[01:30:07] Very helpful

[01:30:07] Especially in startups

[01:30:08] Where this mindset

[01:30:10] Is very important

[01:30:11] For everyone

[01:30:11] To have it

[01:30:12] Because when you

[01:30:12] Get corporate

[01:30:13] It's okay

[01:30:13] If you have a mindset

[01:30:14] Of employee

[01:30:15] You will be very good

[01:30:16] But in a startup

[01:30:17] If you have a mindset

[01:30:18] Of employee

[01:30:19] You will be

[01:30:20] A problem

[01:30:20] For the company

[01:30:22] Because

[01:30:22] You cannot act

[01:30:23] As an employee

[01:30:24] You still have

[01:30:24] To be kinder

[01:30:25] Entrepreneur

[01:30:26] So if you have

[01:30:27] Been entrepreneur

[01:30:28] Before

[01:30:28] Is perfect

[01:30:29] For startups

[01:30:30] It's like

[01:30:31] It's like

[01:30:32] Gold

[01:30:33] Gold

[01:30:35] So there are

[01:30:35] Always something

[01:30:36] You take

[01:30:37] From your

[01:30:37] Experience

[01:30:40] Totally

[01:30:40] So thanks for

[01:30:41] This quote

[01:30:42] I will

[01:30:42] I will give

[01:30:43] A bit of context

[01:30:44] So I wake up

[01:30:45] Just before

[01:30:45] We add the call

[01:30:47] And sometimes

[01:30:47] If you saw me

[01:30:49] Having bugs

[01:30:50] It's because

[01:30:51] All my brain

[01:30:52] Is still not

[01:30:53] Awake

[01:30:53] Still not

[01:30:55] Awake

[01:30:56] So my next

[01:30:57] Question is

[01:30:58] For me

[01:30:58] It's like

[01:30:58] Egoistic

[01:30:59] Question

[01:30:59] Like who

[01:31:00] I should

[01:31:00] Invite

[01:31:00] After you

[01:31:01] In this

[01:31:01] Podcast

[01:31:03] Sorry again

[01:31:03] Who I should

[01:31:05] Invite

[01:31:05] After you

[01:31:06] In this

[01:31:06] Podcast

[01:31:09] Try

[01:31:10] Yes

[01:31:11] Or Thomas

[01:31:12] I can try

[01:31:13] Let me check

[01:31:14] Because I think

[01:31:15] Julien

[01:31:15] I had it

[01:31:16] Already

[01:31:16] Let me double

[01:31:17] Check that

[01:31:19] Otherwise

[01:31:19] Thomas

[01:31:20] I mean

[01:31:21] Thomas

[01:31:21] Yes

[01:31:23] So I think

[01:31:24] His plan

[01:31:25] His plan

[01:31:26] Or was

[01:31:27] Plan

[01:31:27] Maybe

[01:31:28] He got

[01:31:29] A

[01:31:29] But yeah

[01:31:32] Okay

[01:31:32] I will contact

[01:31:33] Them

[01:31:33] Again the

[01:31:34] French crew

[01:31:34] Which is funny

[01:31:35] You know

[01:31:35] Like I had

[01:31:36] A podcast

[01:31:36] In French

[01:31:37] And I found

[01:31:39] Like I was

[01:31:39] Like struggling

[01:31:40] To find

[01:31:40] Guests

[01:31:41] In the

[01:31:42] Maker

[01:31:42] And

[01:31:43] Solopreneur

[01:31:44] Kind of

[01:31:45] This bubble

[01:31:46] At one

[01:31:47] Point

[01:31:47] And I was

[01:31:48] Turning

[01:31:48] Around

[01:31:48] I find

[01:31:49] Like more

[01:31:49] And more

[01:31:50] Kind of

[01:31:50] Startup

[01:31:51] Guys

[01:31:51] Who wanted

[01:31:51] To join

[01:31:52] Because the

[01:31:52] Podcasts

[01:31:53] Get bigger

[01:31:53] So I was

[01:31:54] Like I

[01:31:54] Start again

[01:31:55] From zero

[01:31:55] In English

[01:31:56] And then I

[01:31:56] Will join

[01:31:56] My

[01:31:57] Prod on

[01:31:57] Twitter

[01:31:57] And because

[01:31:58] It's more

[01:31:59] Where I hang out

[01:32:00] And before

[01:32:00] The French

[01:32:01] Podcast was

[01:32:02] More in

[01:32:02] LinkedIn

[01:32:02] And I

[01:32:03] Didn't like

[01:32:04] This world

[01:32:04] Anymore

[01:32:06] And now

[01:32:06] I'm doing it

[01:32:07] In English

[01:32:08] And I have

[01:32:08] Like 50

[01:32:09] People

[01:32:09] 50%

[01:32:10] Of the people

[01:32:11] Who came

[01:32:11] More French

[01:32:12] And more

[01:32:13] And more

[01:32:13] And I

[01:32:14] Seeing

[01:32:14] Like everyday

[01:32:14] New

[01:32:16] Talking in

[01:32:16] French

[01:32:16] I'm like

[01:32:17] What the fuck

[01:32:17] Guys

[01:32:18] You wait

[01:32:18] Me to

[01:32:19] Leave

[01:32:19] Then you

[01:32:20] Start all

[01:32:20] Your business

[01:32:22] That was funny

[01:32:23] But yeah

[01:32:24] Okay

[01:32:25] Thanks for that

[01:32:25] And the last

[01:32:26] Question is

[01:32:27] For you

[01:32:27] Before we

[01:32:29] Say thank

[01:32:29] You to

[01:32:30] Everyone

[01:32:30] To have

[01:32:31] Listened

[01:32:31] To theirs

[01:32:31] Where do

[01:32:34] We send

[01:32:35] People

[01:32:35] Who want

[01:32:36] To know

[01:32:36] More about

[01:32:37] You

[01:32:37] For me

[01:32:37] Or for

[01:32:38] People

[01:32:39] That's

[01:32:39] For everyone

[01:32:41] I was

[01:32:42] Where do

[01:32:43] We send

[01:32:45] Where do

[01:32:45] We send

[01:32:46] People

[01:32:46] Who want

[01:32:47] To know

[01:32:47] More

[01:32:48] About you

[01:32:49] About me

[01:32:51] So on

[01:32:52] X

[01:32:52] Because I

[01:32:53] Tweet a lot

[01:32:54] On my

[01:32:55] Newsletter

[01:32:56] As well

[01:32:56] I have a

[01:32:57] Newsletter

[01:32:59] I don't

[01:33:00] Post much

[01:33:01] I think

[01:33:01] It's once

[01:33:02] Or twice

[01:33:02] A month

[01:33:03] So it

[01:33:03] Won't be

[01:33:04] Spammy

[01:33:04] Okay

[01:33:05] Cool

[01:33:06] Because I

[01:33:06] Have to

[01:33:06] Find ideas

[01:33:07] And I

[01:33:08] Don't want

[01:33:09] It to

[01:33:09] Be like

[01:33:10] Industrial

[01:33:11] Like every

[01:33:12] Week

[01:33:12] This day

[01:33:13] I want

[01:33:14] It to

[01:33:15] Be whenever

[01:33:15] I have

[01:33:16] Nice ideas

[01:33:17] I want

[01:33:17] To share

[01:33:19] More about

[01:33:19] It

[01:33:19] So yes

[01:33:20] I have a

[01:33:20] Newsletter

[01:33:20] I will send

[01:33:21] You the link

[01:33:21] So you can

[01:33:22] Okay

[01:33:23] Great

[01:33:23] And all

[01:33:24] The links

[01:33:25] Will be in

[01:33:25] The description

[01:33:26] As well

[01:33:26] Of the podcast

[01:33:27] Exactly

[01:33:29] Thanks for

[01:33:29] That

[01:33:29] Thanks for

[01:33:30] Joining me

[01:33:31] And spending

[01:33:31] An hour

[01:33:32] 37 with me

[01:33:33] That was great

[01:33:35] Thank you

[01:33:36] Martin

[01:33:36] And so

[01:33:38] For the people

[01:33:38] Who have listened

[01:33:39] To us

[01:33:40] And till

[01:33:40] Arrived

[01:33:41] Till there

[01:33:42] Thanks a lot

[01:33:42] I hope you

[01:33:44] Enjoyed

[01:33:44] And if you

[01:33:46] Enjoy or not

[01:33:46] Whatever

[01:33:47] Send a message

[01:33:48] Send me a message

[01:33:49] Send Pauline

[01:33:51] A message

[01:33:51] It would be

[01:33:51] Nice to say

[01:33:52] Thank you

[01:33:52] For our time

[01:33:54] Here

[01:33:54] And for the

[01:33:55] Valuable

[01:33:55] Things you've

[01:33:56] Learned

[01:33:56] And I

[01:33:57] Tell you

[01:33:58] See you

[01:33:59] In a week

[01:34:00] For the next

[01:34:00] One

[01:34:00] Bye

[01:34:10] Subscribe