Automating Uneed and Building Passive Income With Thomas Sanlis

[00:00:00] Do you want me to say your family name?

[00:00:02] Is it Sanil?

[00:00:03] Sanlis

[00:00:04] Uh...

[00:00:04] Sanlis, wow

[00:00:05] As you want

[00:00:06] Well, it's for you, branding is better than you would have thought

[00:00:13] Sanil, or...?

[00:00:14] Sanlis

[00:00:14] Sanlis, fuck, I'm too tall

[00:00:18] Sanlis

[00:00:18] Sanlis, Sanlis, Thomas, Sanlis

[00:00:21] Well then I would say that Thomas

[00:00:22] That's too much

[00:00:23] Okay, don't be shy

[00:00:30] Hey, Martin

[00:00:32] As you cut to see

[00:00:34] Thomas, if you show the resume or path in three minutes

[00:00:37] How you will do that?

[00:00:38] In three minutes?

[00:00:39] Wow

[00:00:40] Yeah, you have a good time

[00:00:41] I will take notes and then I will open back topic review

[00:00:44] To get deeper

[00:00:45] Okay, perfect

[00:00:46] So in three minutes

[00:00:47] I guess I can start with the fact that I did like a computer school

[00:00:53] In a few years back

[00:00:55] Maybe five years back in Paris

[00:00:57] And I started doing some site projects during my studies

[00:01:02] That's when UNID was born actually

[00:01:05] Five years ago

[00:01:06] So it started...

[00:01:08] So it's my main site project

[00:01:09] And it started as a simple directory for frontend developers

[00:01:15] And I was adding one tool every day

[00:01:19] One tool for frontend developers

[00:01:22] And today I live thanks to UNID

[00:01:27] So it's my main site project

[00:01:29] I also teach in school

[00:01:33] Like a few days per month

[00:01:35] Computer science too

[00:01:38] I weigh above those three minutes cap

[00:01:42] But I don't really know what to say about me

[00:01:44] Why are you under?

[00:01:45] What other project did you do in this meantime

[00:01:48] Like when you were in school?

[00:01:49] Yeah, I started a lot of site projects actually

[00:01:52] I'm not sure to remember every one of them

[00:01:56] Do you know how many you did?

[00:01:59] Maybe like 20

[00:02:01] Okay, yeah

[00:02:02] 20 or 30

[00:02:04] You should do the same kind of tweet as everyone

[00:02:06] It's like oh I made X number of projects

[00:02:09] And only one succeeded

[00:02:10] It's like 99%

[00:02:13] Yeah, I should

[00:02:14] But everyone would ask me where the project did go

[00:02:19] I really don't remember

[00:02:24] And why did you wait?

[00:02:26] So you started computer school

[00:02:29] What was your aim like at the time?

[00:02:32] You wanted to be software engineer

[00:02:33] You wanted to be indie already

[00:02:34] You knew, you don't know

[00:02:37] I didn't even know

[00:02:40] That indie hacker was a real job

[00:02:43] So yeah, I guess

[00:02:46] Yeah, kind of

[00:02:48] We can discuss it later

[00:02:49] I think I really think it is

[00:02:52] But yeah, back then I just wanted to be

[00:02:56] Maybe a software engineer

[00:02:57] To be honest, I think I didn't really know

[00:03:03] And what made you start your project?

[00:03:06] Like why did you create the project just for fun originally?

[00:03:09] Like what was your motivation?

[00:03:11] Just for fun

[00:03:12] Actually, I remember the day started to work on Unid

[00:03:15] And it was just because I saw a tweet

[00:03:19] Talking about a new Vue.js framework

[00:03:23] Called Next. Next.js

[00:03:25] No way

[00:03:25] And I just wanted to test it right away

[00:03:30] And I made a side project

[00:03:32] Just the thing that I was thinking at the moment

[00:03:37] And it was just a simple directory

[00:03:40] Okay, and you still use NUX.js now on Unid?

[00:03:44] Yeah, yeah

[00:03:46] To be honest, I use the same stack every day

[00:03:49] For every project, sorry

[00:03:51] And yeah, I never change

[00:03:53] Okay, what's the stack you use usually?

[00:03:56] So like NUX for frontend

[00:03:58] Yeah, NUX for frontend

[00:04:00] Superbase for the database

[00:04:02] Tailwind for the CSS

[00:04:05] And yeah, that's it

[00:04:06] I use Bento also for emails and marketing and stuff

[00:04:11] So for now it's 100% the same stack as me

[00:04:14] Yeah, really?

[00:04:17] Yeah, that's the best stack ever

[00:04:18] I mean, Bento, I am switching to it this week

[00:04:21] I switched the wall and boarding flow

[00:04:24] This week and I'm going to switch the custom events

[00:04:27] Probably next week because I didn't have time to finish that

[00:04:30] But yeah, I'm starting to use Bento and enjoying it

[00:04:34] Yeah, it's an amazing tool

[00:04:35] Frankly, I can't comprehend how it is a one-man site project

[00:04:42] I think

[00:04:44] It's my main project I think now, but yeah

[00:04:48] But yeah, this guy, Jesse is like crazy

[00:04:53] I am impressed by him

[00:04:56] The tone of work, the tone of feature they have

[00:04:58] Even too much, sometimes I'm like what the hell

[00:05:00] I cannot comprehend even what the feature are in this project

[00:05:03] There's so many things

[00:05:05] You can do the chat even now

[00:05:07] So many things

[00:05:09] And yeah, he's just one guy

[00:05:11] So sometimes it's a bit messy I find to find things

[00:05:14] But otherwise I really love it

[00:05:16] It's super powerful and really made for developers

[00:05:20] I find like, I mean, for a mix

[00:05:23] You know, you can use as a developer

[00:05:25] But also as a marketer

[00:05:27] And it's not like, you know, most of the email tools are really developers

[00:05:31] So you have no interface, everything is just API

[00:05:35] And for us, it doesn't make sense because like

[00:05:39] We need both, we're doing both jobs

[00:05:42] Yeah, it's a perfect mix for us

[00:05:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah

[00:05:45] And all the tools are like super, like Mailchimp for example

[00:05:49] You have an API but I don't like it much

[00:05:52] And it's a bit complex

[00:05:54] And on the other side you have like very good tools for marketer

[00:05:58] But then the price is for marketer as well

[00:06:01] Yeah, it's very expensive

[00:06:03] Yeah, it's too expensive for me

[00:06:05] Yeah, and you know I'm still discovering some features in Bento

[00:06:09] Actually, I think it was last week

[00:06:12] I discovered that you can add

[00:06:15] Like a sort of chatbot for customer service

[00:06:18] In your website

[00:06:19] Just with Bento you just have to click on a button

[00:06:23] And that's it

[00:06:24] Yeah, I just saw that as well

[00:06:27] So I was thinking to remove one of my solutions

[00:06:29] I use a chatwood I think

[00:06:32] Which is open source

[00:06:34] But right now I really like it

[00:06:36] Just the thing is I have some data in Bento

[00:06:40] Or Plunk, I was using Plunk before

[00:06:42] Some data in chatwood and everything is a bit scattered

[00:06:45] And I was like, it's too much tool

[00:06:47] So I would like to have less tool

[00:06:49] And more centralized things

[00:06:50] Then I can rely on and also don't put my user data everywhere

[00:06:55] So I try to do that the least possible

[00:06:58] So that's why I think I will switch to the Bento chat

[00:07:01] To have it...

[00:07:04] Yeah, to remove chatwood

[00:07:07] We did the same sources

[00:07:09] You know, I was using Plunk just before Bento too

[00:07:12] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah

[00:07:14] Plunk is nice but maybe now since it's open source

[00:07:17] It will move and improve

[00:07:19] Because right now he had so many issues in the UX

[00:07:22] You click save, it doesn't save

[00:07:24] Or load infinitely and stuff like that

[00:07:26] It's super cheap but it's too cheap

[00:07:28] It makes it a cheap solution

[00:07:30] In a way

[00:07:31] So that's sad

[00:07:33] I think he could like 10x the price

[00:07:34] And I would be super happy

[00:07:36] And he can build better quality of the software

[00:07:39] Yeah, I agree

[00:07:40] But yeah, that's the thing

[00:07:42] And...

[00:07:43] I wanted to talk about something

[00:07:45] But I think I forgot

[00:07:47] Okay, so...

[00:07:48] Question, let's go back to Units

[00:07:51] So you made this directory just because

[00:07:53] Basically you wanted to discover Nukes

[00:07:56] And how did the project start to have users?

[00:08:02] What did you do at the beginning to be like...

[00:08:05] First explain maybe what is Units

[00:08:07] And then...

[00:08:09] Yeah, so today Units is like

[00:08:12] A competitor of Product Ants

[00:08:15] It's a launch platform for your product

[00:08:18] So every day you can find on the homepage

[00:08:21] A new product on the website

[00:08:25] You also have a leaderboard

[00:08:28] For weekly, monthly and yearly products

[00:08:32] And you can also just discover new products

[00:08:35] Just by looking with their categories

[00:08:38] Or tags and so on

[00:08:40] And it's also now some sort of community

[00:08:44] I'm actually working on new features

[00:08:47] On the community side

[00:08:49] But yeah, I also write reviews for product creators

[00:08:54] Like you send me an access to your product

[00:08:56] I test it a lot

[00:08:58] And write a complete review

[00:09:01] So you can rank on Google

[00:09:03] With like your own product name

[00:09:06] And the word ranking or review

[00:09:09] Yeah, that's cool

[00:09:12] So for now you don't have even like comment section

[00:09:15] Stuff like that

[00:09:15] It's just a product list and that's it

[00:09:17] Compared to Product Antware

[00:09:19] For now, that's it

[00:09:21] Okay

[00:09:22] And you never add a discord

[00:09:24] Or something for people to gather

[00:09:27] About Units?

[00:09:28] No, I thought about it

[00:09:29] But it already takes me a lot of time

[00:09:32] To just maintain and making the website evolves

[00:09:36] And I'm not really a community guy

[00:09:39] I know if I just created a discord

[00:09:43] I wouldn't be so active in it

[00:09:45] So yeah, I'm not sure

[00:09:48] This is a good idea for me right now

[00:09:51] At least

[00:09:51] But I'm thinking of a few community features

[00:09:56] For the website

[00:09:56] Okay

[00:09:58] Like comments or stuff like that

[00:09:59] You don't have to talk about it

[00:10:00] There's already a way to leave comments on Units

[00:10:04] You can just leave a comment

[00:10:07] Regarding a specific tool or product

[00:10:11] But yeah, now I'm thinking about a community blog

[00:10:15] Like a bit like India Hackers

[00:10:17] Official website

[00:10:19] So the user would be able to post updates

[00:10:23] About their products

[00:10:24] Or just blog posts for the community

[00:10:27] I just realized you're also in a very good position

[00:10:31] To do like a trust pilot for like India makers

[00:10:34] Or startups kind

[00:10:36] Yeah, that's one of my goals actually

[00:10:39] You can already review and rate products on Units

[00:10:43] But yeah, it's a feature that really needs more work

[00:10:49] It's not very visible on the website right now

[00:10:52] And not so many users are actually

[00:10:56] Rating and commenting the product

[00:10:58] So I have to work on that

[00:11:01] Yeah

[00:11:03] I believe also something I never saw

[00:11:06] Because right now you know when you're in a mobile app

[00:11:08] You can rate the app and it goes directly to the app store

[00:11:11] But it could be nice to have like a trust pilot

[00:11:14] Kind of project where you can put the rating directly from the app

[00:11:19] Instead of asking the user go to trust pilot to register

[00:11:22] He could go directly to his own app and your model

[00:11:25] Made by Units for example

[00:11:27] And directly like put the rating in it

[00:11:30] And you can get the email of the user

[00:11:32] And he just like probably receive an email directly

[00:11:34] To confirm he was him, you know, to the off scam

[00:11:37] With tech notes

[00:11:39] Yeah, I should text not, you know

[00:11:41] You're giving me really great ideas

[00:11:44] So yeah, I like it

[00:11:46] The integration could be very nice

[00:11:49] And then you're in many websites

[00:11:52] Yeah, I guess that would be more backlinks for Units

[00:11:55] Yes, exactly

[00:11:57] Then you generate like a tiny code

[00:11:59] With put the rating like trust pilot

[00:12:01] And then you have fucking insane SEO

[00:12:04] Yeah, okay so

[00:12:06] So man you just gave me a fantastic idea

[00:12:09] I don't know if it would work

[00:12:12] But on the paper it look amazing

[00:12:14] Yeah, totally

[00:12:14] Okay and on the project like you're trying to launch before

[00:12:18] So at the beginning did you got some traction

[00:12:21] In Unit or it didn't work out

[00:12:24] No traction at all

[00:12:27] Yeah, I was thinking about Unit

[00:12:30] Like a laboratory or a playground

[00:12:34] Or just a test project

[00:12:36] Yeah to test next and some SEO stuff

[00:12:40] But yeah, I know it didn't have any traction at first

[00:12:43] Then I launched it on Productant

[00:12:48] Actually, and yeah

[00:12:50] It started to get a bit of traction

[00:12:53] But not so much

[00:12:55] That's when I put a waiting line system

[00:12:59] And yeah, I started earning my first money online

[00:13:03] And it begins to attract visitors and so on

[00:13:10] So yeah that was the beginning of what it is right now

[00:13:14] Okay, how much are you making right now if you share

[00:13:17] I don't know if you share

[00:13:18] Yeah, it depends on the month

[00:13:21] But I'm between 1.5 thousand dollars per month

[00:13:24] And two thousand

[00:13:26] Okay, yeah that's start to be

[00:13:29] I mean profitable

[00:13:31] Yeah, it is

[00:13:33] And do you know how much you have costs

[00:13:35] Like it's like nothing to

[00:13:38] Yeah, actually my only expense now is bento

[00:13:44] No, no I also pay for SuperBase

[00:13:47] I think maybe twenty or

[00:13:49] Yeah, twenty five or thirty dollars per month

[00:13:52] Plus twenty, I think I'm at seventy dollars per month

[00:13:56] So yeah, one hundred

[00:13:59] I have a lot of emails of people

[00:14:00] Yeah, the newsletter is working great actually

[00:14:03] So yeah, it's starting to be a bit expensive

[00:14:07] Okay, what was for you the game changer steps in

[00:14:10] In you need like it was productant

[00:14:13] Did you have other things you saw that was really like changing it

[00:14:17] I think two things actually

[00:14:20] Yeah so maybe the product launch at first

[00:14:24] But I think you need really started to take off

[00:14:28] When I started to learn SEO actually

[00:14:32] So yeah, I started to make a lot of

[00:14:36] PSEO pages

[00:14:38] Yeah, like alternative pages for every product and so on

[00:14:46] And impressions on social giants starting to

[00:14:51] Oh, you're doing like alternative to for example my business cap go

[00:14:56] And then you can see alternatives

[00:14:58] Yeah, yeah, pretty short cap go must have an alternative page

[00:15:04] That's funny, I will have a check to see if it's well done

[00:15:08] There are no much concurrent of my business

[00:15:10] So I wonder like what you could put in this page

[00:15:14] Honestly that just programmatic SEO

[00:15:16] So yeah, you just find your competitors

[00:15:20] And yeah, your description, your image and so on

[00:15:24] And you do that based on the current database of you need

[00:15:28] Or you really search on

[00:15:29] I just choose a unit database

[00:15:33] Okay, for now

[00:15:34] So probably have no concurrent

[00:15:38] Yeah, maybe, you know, I'll take a look at cap go alternative pages

[00:15:41] But if you have not any concurrent and you need

[00:15:45] You don't have an alternative pages

[00:15:48] That's why that's why

[00:15:49] Yeah, yeah, because mainly they are one guy which is an indie maker as well

[00:15:53] But I'm not sure he's, you know, he didn't do any marketing around his alternative

[00:16:00] He's like more in the documentation is very developer oriented

[00:16:03] So I'm not sure he's like he's in unit or stuff like that

[00:16:07] And the other one is a big corporate

[00:16:09] So they're not in unit, I believe

[00:16:11] Because they don't, I'm not sure they even in product and they don't understand this

[00:16:19] So, and they don't need to think because they target like corporate as well

[00:16:23] So yeah, I believe it's not the thing

[00:16:27] So making alternative page, yeah, that's interesting

[00:16:30] I'm wondering do you think for like a normal business is interesting to do like alternative pages as well

[00:16:38] It's good for you because you have a lot

[00:16:39] Yeah, you have to have some data to display and to use

[00:16:45] But yeah, if you have a big database or just, you know, a lot of possibility to build pages

[00:16:53] Yeah, I really think it's a powerful tool to increase your impressions and clicks on search engines

[00:17:02] So yeah, I think everyone should learn the basics of programmatic SEO

[00:17:07] I've done a tool with programmatic SEO and basically

[00:17:11] So you know CapGo is a plugin for Capacitor apps

[00:17:16] So basically I made a scrapper to scrap NPM packages to find all the plugins were available on Earth about Capacitor

[00:17:26] And making a tiny page tutorial how to use the plugin

[00:17:29] And I ranked it on Google

[00:17:31] I have like 1500, I think, pages like that

[00:17:38] That's a great idea

[00:17:40] Yeah, that was cool but at the beginning it didn't rank at all

[00:17:43] And until I used from John Rush, I think the index washer

[00:17:48] And he started to make like 200 people a day watching the pages before it was zero

[00:17:56] And then he started working

[00:17:57] Yeah, very good point

[00:17:58] Yeah, I also used a tool like this

[00:18:01] I think it was StackPower

[00:18:03] But I finally made my own script to do this

[00:18:08] I think you made the one for Bing, right?

[00:18:14] Bing and Google actually, tools like StackPairWord and IndexPro and so on

[00:18:20] Not so complicated, you know, you can just write showlines of Python to send requests to Google API

[00:18:30] Yeah, I realized I could do like, I mean it was GitHub Action, available

[00:18:35] I already pre-made, you just put your API key and it works

[00:18:38] So I did that

[00:18:39] Yeah, that's crazy

[00:18:40] Okay, so SEO is very important for you

[00:18:44] Like, do you do like pay ads?

[00:18:46] Did you try it?

[00:18:48] I never tried

[00:18:49] I'm not sure it would make a lot of sense to run pay ads for a unit

[00:18:54] As by nature the conversion rate is very low on the platform

[00:18:59] And yeah, I don't think that would be worth it for me

[00:19:04] But who knows, maybe I should buy the Maker Hats Guide guide by Nico, you know

[00:19:11] Just to try and Facebook ads will do something

[00:19:14] I'll put it in the description with affiliate link

[00:19:18] I don't know if he has the affiliate

[00:19:21] I think he does

[00:19:25] If I remember correctly, he does

[00:19:27] Yeah, definitely I think ads will work when you have like high revenue by user

[00:19:34] Like you need to double or triple, otherwise it doesn't make sense

[00:19:39] But for the total of people visiting, by the number of people buying then you know how much you convert

[00:19:47] I think one company was doing that very well is Absumo

[00:19:53] Because they do exceptional deals

[00:19:56] And they got a lot of conversion for that

[00:19:58] So they make shit tons of ads for product they got into the Absumo

[00:20:04] Yeah, yeah, actually I also have some sort of deal system on unit

[00:20:11] Like when you publish your product you can offer some discount or coupon code to your users

[00:20:19] But yeah, I'm far from being Absumo

[00:20:22] But yeah, their business model is interesting and I should take a look to improve

[00:20:29] Second feature, indie deals

[00:20:32] You do like Absumo, Malfair for ins makers

[00:20:36] Yeah, that would be great

[00:20:40] Absumo, and it's more like marketing people are in its land than developers or developer tools

[00:20:46] There are some but they have way less success

[00:20:48] Like a friend who launched developer tools and he was like 10 times less than like a marketing tools

[00:20:55] Like you know for example, Guillaume Mubesh we made

[00:21:01] I forgot what's the name

[00:21:05] Lemlist, so basically Lemlist is like email marketing tool

[00:21:10] And Lempod is like a community of people posting on LinkedIn

[00:21:15] And everyone like each other post automatically

[00:21:19] That is totally not okay for LinkedIn

[00:21:22] So when he sold it it kind of got closed out very after

[00:21:24] But yeah, he launched that and that he made like I think 70k benefits on this pocket

[00:21:31] I mean after the launch

[00:21:34] So he started the business like that

[00:21:37] They were just developing without team and then 70k

[00:21:40] So that was a big option

[00:21:43] Yeah, but the thing is Absumo took 70%

[00:21:47] So that's meaning he made way more money

[00:21:49] But you know 70% got for Absumo

[00:21:52] Yeah, that's crazy

[00:21:55] I lost the screen again

[00:21:57] This is like, so no, I'm a cappella right now

[00:22:01] Okay, and so now you're making like a living or like a ramen profitable

[00:22:07] You feel like you're living comfortably in France with this amount?

[00:22:12] Yeah, plus the school

[00:22:14] That's a very important point

[00:22:16] I couldn't live just with the unit for now

[00:22:19] But yeah, the school plus unit is enough for me

[00:22:24] Of course I'm always looking to increase my revenue

[00:22:27] Do you have a target with unit?

[00:22:30] Not really

[00:22:33] Not how can I say that, automate unit the most as possible

[00:22:37] I really want this project to run on itself

[00:22:40] You know, like I don't want to have to check it every day

[00:22:45] As I do right now

[00:22:47] So yeah, everything I do these days is toward this goal of automating

[00:22:56] Last time I spoke with someone and I realized in French we have a different way to say it

[00:23:01] Automate

[00:23:03] Yeah, it's automate, exactly

[00:23:05] But it's like so hard

[00:23:09] Okay, so like your target is like to be free from it

[00:23:14] And if you're like kind of passive or you need you're going to launch other things

[00:23:19] What's your goal? To just chill on the beach

[00:23:21] Yeah

[00:23:25] But yeah, actually I'm already working on some other site projects

[00:23:29] But that's mainly because I get bored easily

[00:23:34] So from time to time I just feel the need to switch from unit to another site project

[00:23:41] So I launched View Developers a few months ago

[00:23:46] It's a reverse job board for View Developers

[00:23:50] So the developers can create their profiles and the recruiters can just contact them

[00:23:56] I just told you again

[00:23:58] Yeah

[00:23:59] Of course, of course I just took you in

[00:24:03] When you know what you're doing, yes

[00:24:05] Yeah, and actually I worked on this project for maybe two weeks

[00:24:11] And that's it, I just left it on the wild, you know

[00:24:16] And I made my first sale two weeks ago

[00:24:19] So yeah, it motivates me again to work on that

[00:24:23] What do you sell on it?

[00:24:26] Subscription monthly for recruiters to have access to every developer's contact information

[00:24:33] And what's the pricing?

[00:24:36] I think it's $100 per month or $19 per month

[00:24:43] Yeah

[00:24:44] Yeah, so that's great

[00:24:47] For scrapping all your data all the time?

[00:24:50] That's good

[00:24:51] Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe

[00:24:54] I don't know, I think they just send an email to every developer

[00:24:59] And that's it

[00:25:00] But yeah, I'm also working on a new site project since yesterday

[00:25:06] Oh wow, it's very fresh, do you want to talk about it?

[00:25:09] The podcast will be out in a month or something

[00:25:12] So you're like

[00:25:16] I'm already finished if I have the courage to work on it

[00:25:20] But for the story, I just bought boiler plates yesterday

[00:25:25] Oh yeah

[00:25:26] Next three boiler plates because I was curious to see another person working on making a SaaS with next

[00:25:35] And I found a lot of interesting things and just wanted to try it

[00:25:41] Do your own?

[00:25:42] Yeah, no, maybe at some point because I saw some mistakes too

[00:25:48] Yeah, so first

[00:25:50] But yeah, I just wanted to try it and build a site projector on it

[00:25:54] I thought the site project was to make the boiler plate

[00:25:59] Yeah, maybe in the future though but yeah, not right now

[00:26:03] Now the site project actually is like a simple SaaS to write a change log for your product

[00:26:11] Oh nice

[00:26:12] And that's it, a very simple SaaS like maybe it would be 5 or 6 dollars per month

[00:26:19] But yeah

[00:26:20] No, that's very good man

[00:26:22] Right now in CapGoo for example I had this problem

[00:26:25] I set up like a commit conventionals and I have auto CI CD generating the change log

[00:26:32] And I thought that was such a smart idea

[00:26:35] And now I have a change log like weight 10 megabytes

[00:26:38] And I'm like fuck each time I open it everything lagged

[00:26:42] No one use it anymore because you cannot open it, you cannot read it

[00:26:45] I'm like

[00:26:47] Yeah, that's the issue

[00:26:48] Yeah, I'm not sure actually I would build something around GitHub to make an automatic change log

[00:26:59] But yeah, I see, that's working

[00:27:01] But I think it will be mainly your have to write the change log

[00:27:07] Yeah, but that's a difficult topic because if you do it manual then people tend to have also like some thing for it

[00:27:16] So you have to like simplify the life of people but not to automatize because you lower the quality of it

[00:27:22] For me it's like if you nail it, it's very good product because this is not easy to make it valuable for people

[00:27:31] Yeah, I agree, I have to find the right balance for that

[00:27:36] Yeah

[00:27:37] And so when you were able to quit your job like when you started you need

[00:27:43] I think I didn't even took the decision to quit my job

[00:27:50] Good job with you

[00:27:52] Kind of actually, I started freelancing just after my school you know

[00:27:59] And I just did three months with a permanent contract and an agency in my city just to get an apartment actually

[00:28:09] Yeah, you have the papers

[00:28:13] Yeah, that's it

[00:28:15] But yeah, yeah, that's it, that's a very complicated situation but yeah, I have an apartment now so that's it

[00:28:23] But yeah, I started freelancing right after my school

[00:28:28] And I stopped freelancing in January this year because my main customer has gone bankrupt

[00:28:41] Oh fuck

[00:28:42] So yeah, he was working in the real estate industry so yeah that's not a good industry to be in right now

[00:28:51] So yeah, that was complicated for them

[00:28:53] But yeah, since then I stopped doing freelancing and just living thanks to Unid and teaching

[00:29:02] Okay, you teaching in the school you were a student or a different one?

[00:29:06] No, a different one

[00:29:07] What's the name?

[00:29:09] Adatex School

[00:29:10] Oh, it's very cool

[00:29:13] Yeah, I love it, I really love my days at the school and the way of teaching is way more pragmatic and efficient

[00:29:25] And you were a bindi

[00:29:28] Yeah, yeah so yeah, I love it

[00:29:31] Yeah, new IT school I really loved the way they were doing like I did a Pitek and there was also kind of new way of learning and I really enjoyed

[00:29:39] So that's nice, I've seen some people going you know I knew them and I go to Pitek who was more private and different mindset

[00:29:47] And I saw them going to public university and they were like yeah we caught on paper

[00:29:51] I was like what?

[00:29:55] Yeah I did one year at university and yeah that was the thing saying I was writing code on paper

[00:30:02] Oh you did as well, oh my god

[00:30:04] Yeah just for one year

[00:30:06] That's totally crazy

[00:30:08] I don't know if they're still doing that these days but yeah that was just

[00:30:13] Last time I hear that it was three years ago so I bet probably

[00:30:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sucks

[00:30:21] Yeah, I don't know

[00:30:23] I mean for certain kind of thing maybe like if you want to do an exam in certain kind and write only the logic of the person

[00:30:35] So okay you isolate this person from internet then he's showing his own logic

[00:30:40] But mainly everything, no like what the fuck guys

[00:30:44] Yeah, yeah but even for exams you know I had this debate with the friend a few weeks ago about should we you know

[00:30:54] Shut down the internet connection of a candidate when you're interviewing someone for like a software engineer job

[00:31:02] And for me it doesn't make sense at all you know you have access to the internet all the time when you're working

[00:31:10] So yeah I don't get the objective the goal

[00:31:15] Yeah unless for me it doesn't make sense for coding at all

[00:31:19] Only if you want to discover the logic path of the person like how do we think

[00:31:25] So you tell him okay we have this problem you have a paper and a pen if you need

[00:31:29] And you explain me how you will resolve it in your mind like what's your idea how you take the problem

[00:31:34] That's interesting but that shouldn't be something like he should be compiling the code you know writing the code on the paper

[00:31:42] And he should work you know like if I forgot a fucking comma your idea will tell you so it's useless to do that on the fucking paper

[00:31:49] Yeah I agree

[00:31:51] Yeah so but I saw the only time I worked in my life it was some kind of thing so I had the internet

[00:31:59] I went on the job interview and one part we did more talking and it was very nice because like

[00:32:06] I was just showing like how do I think and you know I'm not just copy pasting how someone else thinks

[00:32:14] Because sometimes in developer you have to be creative and have logic so it's important to also know the person is not like

[00:32:22] If he doesn't find it on Stack Overflow he's stuck

[00:32:24] Because that happens to me sometimes like some developers I work with they're like there are no solutions

[00:32:30] Like what do you mean? Yeah he didn't find on Stack Overflow

[00:32:32] Yeah okay this is two different things

[00:32:38] Like for example what I did with CapGo it doesn't exist you know like the only company was doing that

[00:32:44] He was cloud sourced and super hidden you have no way to do it and no other person in the world were doing what I wanted to do

[00:32:50] So I had to invent it and create it and find people on internet help me to understand the shit I was doing

[00:32:56] Because it was the first time I was doing like native code and stuff like that

[00:33:00] So for this you know you need like these kind of competencies to be like really thinking outside of box

[00:33:06] Yeah some very important I think as a developer

[00:33:10] But yeah sometimes people are very good developer but don't have these skills

[00:33:16] And I find it like super hard to I don't know it's like a missing piece

[00:33:21] Like when I was like team leader when someone was not like that I was like kind of useless

[00:33:26] You know I give you a task and then of course there's something unexpected happen and I have to come to help you all the time

[00:33:32] And that was not my you know something I like when you team leader is more like

[00:33:38] Make people discover new thing or new way of thinking they didn't knew

[00:33:42] Like but just like give them like hey look did you look there? Oh no

[00:33:47] Yeah you have to have the right mindset to be a developer

[00:33:53] Yeah in the school you see that like I was teacher like you at one point and you see that often in the beginning of people are like

[00:34:00] Hey teacher what's the solution? No I think you don't understand

[00:34:03] You have to fucking search it

[00:34:06] We have this rule at the school I'm working on

[00:34:09] We shouldn't give the answer you know

[00:34:14] Yeah and at the beginning of the year for students it's very difficult to accept the fact that

[00:34:21] We're not going to giving them the answer and they have to search for it

[00:34:26] And yeah it's not very natural for a lot of people

[00:34:31] But yeah that's something you have to work on if you want to be the developer

[00:34:36] When I was teacher I made a process in the school where I was and they hated me for that but that works so well

[00:34:43] I told them okay if you have a question first you ask Google

[00:34:46] If Google doesn't answer well ask again because you probably didn't ask correctly

[00:34:51] If you didn't manage to find solution then ask the person next to you

[00:34:55] Alright and if it doesn't answer ask left and after that try to ask Google again

[00:35:01] Because maybe with the discussion you will have better question

[00:35:03] And if still don't find write me a slack message and once a day I will answer them

[00:35:10] So that's basically you don't have to work in Marcellin

[00:35:13] Yeah I was doing other things with them I was inspiring them helping them to work together

[00:35:18] Because in the school it was super important to work together as a team

[00:35:21] So I would spend a lot of time making work together

[00:35:24] And also I pushed them to make them help each other

[00:35:28] I told them like as a class like the slowest is the one who slow everyone

[00:35:34] So if you help the one who are slow then the school will like you will push everyone up

[00:35:39] So instead of asking me to help him go to help him

[00:35:42] And if you know how to teach that's mean you're mastering your craft

[00:35:46] So I really might have removed myself from the class

[00:35:50] Yeah sure you're a great teacher you know

[00:35:54] We kind of do the same at the school

[00:35:58] But yeah mainly I think I spend most time doing psychology and helping them working

[00:36:09] Than doing actual development

[00:36:12] So yeah that's pretty interesting

[00:36:15] Yeah I was kind of doing the same because like showing them how to code is not really helping

[00:36:20] Most of you need to learn as a developer is to be an autonomous person

[00:36:24] It's change your mindset from school where everything is provided to you

[00:36:28] To something nothing will be provided to you ever

[00:36:30] Because everything changes all the time in the world

[00:36:33] So if you're worried someone teaching you how to use the next version of you

[00:36:36] You're fucked

[00:36:37] Yeah

[00:36:38] The question is so much

[00:36:41] Yeah do you want to teach at my school?

[00:36:46] You have to move in Nantes

[00:36:48] Yeah no that's the problem

[00:36:50] I really love teaching but right now I was teaching near to Nantes by the way

[00:36:55] I was teaching in La Loupe maybe you know it's the first wild code school was there

[00:37:00] So I moved there from Paris to just go teaching and I really enjoyed it

[00:37:05] But the thing is it takes a lot of time and I like my freedom

[00:37:09] You know I like to wake up whenever I want and stuff like that

[00:37:12] So when you have school it's different

[00:37:13] But here in Madeira if I had the opportunity to teach like once a week

[00:37:18] A bit to help locals, child believe they can do something with their life

[00:37:23] Because right now here most of people feeling you know for long

[00:37:29] Madeira was seen as an island for retirement people

[00:37:33] So there are no opportunity, no thing, no job

[00:37:36] So most of Portuguese people when they end up like primary school

[00:37:40] They go to mainland to find a job and or study more

[00:37:44] And they hope to come back at one point but never can because they got the job abroad and blah blah blah

[00:37:49] And so they have all this mindset there are no much opportunity here

[00:37:53] There are many digital nomads like me they went or stayed now

[00:37:56] And we want to show them you don't need to leave this little paradise

[00:37:59] You can do everything online you can learn online you can get to school online

[00:38:03] You can get the job online and still live in fucking paradise

[00:38:07] And when we go to school to tell them that they say ok but this is temporary

[00:38:12] Like you cannot make a living from internet it's just like a side gig

[00:38:18] You can get like 1000, 2000, I don't know a year and then you will die

[00:38:23] You know it's like scam

[00:38:25] I was like oh my god

[00:38:26] That's bad

[00:38:27] Ok so next step you have to open a school in Madeira

[00:38:32] We're thinking to do a school here for coding but everything is like so slow

[00:38:40] The state are like so behind in many ways so we're working on that because I am an NGO

[00:38:46] In Madeira where we try to integrate like nomads and expats into the communities

[00:38:52] Because we don't want to have a clash and people feel like we're stealing their land

[00:38:55] And stuff like that we want them to also benefit from that

[00:38:58] So that's why we go to school and stuff like that

[00:39:01] But man it's like terribly slow to bring this

[00:39:05] But I would love to like I love teaching I know other French people would love teaching here in the Netherlands

[00:39:10] So it would be like so nice to give back you know for all this beautiful island which is giving us so much

[00:39:16] Yeah yeah yeah

[00:39:18] Opening your own school must be rewarding but they're so very challenging

[00:39:23] Yeah I think I will be like good at coming once a week or twice a week to give some kind of mindset things

[00:39:33] And like how I do things and stuff like that

[00:39:35] Like yeah be full time there I've been working in the school and I know it's like

[00:39:41] It's like yeah from morning to night it's full time job every student has always a question something

[00:39:48] They feel bad they feel like piece of shit they cannot code they like wondering why they are in this school

[00:39:53] And you're like you can do it you do that and then five minutes later

[00:39:57] We live the same thing

[00:39:58] Yeah and five minutes later he totally forgot that

[00:40:01] And he's like oh no I'm piece of shit again because he finds a bug and you're like yeah that will be your life

[00:40:06] Bug after bug after bug but you have to enjoy it

[00:40:09] Yeah you have to find a way to enjoy it

[00:40:12] Yeah yeah I think I don't know about you but I find teaching days very exhausting you know

[00:40:18] After a day at the school I'm just tired and I just want to eat and go to bed you know

[00:40:24] But yeah one or two days per week I just love it

[00:40:28] I'm tired on the evening okay but the day after I feel you know motivated and energized

[00:40:36] Just by seeing some people helping some some people yeah I just have projects

[00:40:43] Where making enough money for me to live on I don't think I would stop teaching so

[00:40:50] Yeah yeah for me I will go back to that because it's very nice to like help other people

[00:40:56] See also where you come from I think because sometimes you forget like how much what you do is hard

[00:41:02] For many people you know because you're doing it every day and then you come back to beginners

[00:41:06] And you're like what the fuck yeah this is hard to understand like how to explain that

[00:41:10] Yeah someone and yeah for me the most funny part of teaching was

[00:41:17] Because in the school I was we were having a student from 18 years old to 52

[00:41:23] Yes and the oldest are the better because they don't believe you know they look at you

[00:41:29] Like what this young guy is going to teach me so you can do all best pitch you want

[00:41:34] Every five minutes they forgot about it and like no I'm going to lose my time here

[00:41:38] This is not how I should learn and stuff like that they are really like this mental thing coming over and over

[00:41:43] And the guy one of them he was super good at coding and he couldn't like believe in himself

[00:41:50] And I was so sad for that you know like the guy's so good and he was like no I don't know

[00:41:54] I don't understand I'm like dude you're like one of the best in the class what you're talking about

[00:41:59] He's like okay you're right and then two minutes later now I'm bad and he quit

[00:42:04] He quit like he was good at it and he quit and got back to his job

[00:42:07] And I was like it's just mindset that's so frustrating you know that's also the main difficulty

[00:42:16] My students are facing lack of confidence you know

[00:42:20] And that's something really really complicated to work on

[00:42:26] But yeah it can be very frustrating to see someone who is great at coding

[00:42:31] And yeah he just doesn't have confidence that can work without confidence

[00:42:37] Yeah no definitely the thing is the same for Indie Maker I think is

[00:42:45] Like you are alone in this and more you go like already developer is kind of a lonely job

[00:42:51] And you're gonna just ask Google all the time and Slack overflow all the time

[00:42:55] And you have to really have good like you have to love yourself enough to believe that works

[00:43:03] You know and to believe in yourself every day and the same with like Indie Maker

[00:43:09] Like that I just post that today is like most of people will fail

[00:43:12] Not because like they are bad but because they're abandoned that's the way you fail

[00:43:17] You only fail and you abandon something and in Indie Maker this is just a matter of time and look

[00:43:25] And you will get better with time and you have to do it long enough then you'll get lucky

[00:43:30] Yeah yeah yeah I think that's the ultimate confidence test you know

[00:43:36] You really have to believe in yourself if you want to make it

[00:43:41] So yeah Indie hacking is next level confidence wise

[00:43:47] I think often something we do is like we are too arch on ourselves

[00:43:51] You know like you have to understand it and make it in two days

[00:43:56] You know one week or whatever like be fucking patient

[00:44:01] Like life is a compassion game and you have to be patient on everything

[00:44:04] Everything take eternity and the better I've been passionate the better at everything you will be

[00:44:10] Because like you're not becoming like a fit person in the day you know the same way

[00:44:16] So everything you're doing takes time it takes like years

[00:44:21] That's something very complicated you know to see because of social media

[00:44:26] Like on Twitter you see on your timeline just successful people making shit tons of money every day

[00:44:35] And yeah you just have to accept it and realize that they're not where they are today

[00:44:43] Because they work just for a week or a month or even just a year

[00:44:47] But now they work for many years to get there

[00:44:52] So yeah it's not easy to understand and to accept

[00:44:57] But I really think it's very important if you want to be an indie hacker

[00:45:02] Yeah I should recommend more

[00:45:05] You know because Marc is like a lot critical lately because he managed to make very good money

[00:45:12] And everyone is like pissing on him before everyone was loving him because he was not making money

[00:45:18] And I got him in the podcast he was making 1000 a month he was like fucking doing the minimum spend

[00:45:24] Possible spending nothing I told him let's go to restaurants like no man I have a budget to do

[00:45:30] To think you know I was in Bali with him and he was like I cannot go like too much out and stuff like that

[00:45:34] Because I have a budget you know otherwise I burned my savings

[00:45:37] And he was saving so he got from inheritance so he didn't wanted to like spending just doing life

[00:45:43] And I was like yeah okay and we did the podcast he was super enthusiastic about what he was doing

[00:45:48] And trying his best and blah blah blah and I was like super hard working guy

[00:45:52] Like a hard routine and he wake up every day early go to 3 hours of work doing surf

[00:45:58] And then work without phone and just read and it's like fucking machine every day

[00:46:03] And the guy I saw him and he was like not having any success you know

[00:46:07] He was like having a good life he was happy but no success

[00:46:10] I was like whoa man that's impressive and then he got successful and I was like

[00:46:14] Oh man you deserve it I saw the work I saw what you're doing

[00:46:19] You fucking deserve it and people are like ah the guy got lucky or he's just selling a shove

[00:46:24] Okay come on guys thank you

[00:46:26] I really deserves it yeah I followed him twitter thinks maybe it's 3 or 4 years and I saw

[00:46:33] The hard work he was putting every day making thousands of site projects everywhere

[00:46:39] So yeah he totally deserves it but you know that's something a bit scary I think

[00:46:47] That from the moment you start to have some success

[00:46:52] You could have some haters on the internet and people are like yeah yeah yeah

[00:47:02] Yeah yeah I find it scary honestly because I know that I'm not very resistant to people

[00:47:11] Shitting on me and the internet I saw that a few times already on twitter when I had

[00:47:16] A tweet who you know made the some kind of buzz

[00:47:21] Yeah yeah yeah that's one of them I think that was the worst

[00:47:26] You got so many like I mean it was like you know the expression in French

[00:47:33] T'attendu le bâton pour te faire battre

[00:47:35] It's like you give the stick to get beaten you know because there are so many people

[00:47:40] Shitting already on the other side because you shouldn't use that

[00:47:43] You should like host yourself everything and reinvent the wheel and blah blah blah

[00:47:46] And so you got a big bid in person and then everyone was like

[00:47:52] Yeah you should have self host we told you

[00:47:54] Yeah yeah yeah

[00:47:55] First do something that works and then later you manage other problems ok

[00:48:00] One problem at a time

[00:48:02] Yeah that was a really a no fault shit storm but yeah I knew I have to do it if I wanted to be reformed

[00:48:12] So yeah I just push it for a month actually

[00:48:17] Yeah and yeah it worked finally but yeah that moment is yeah I know I had to take a few days off without a computer

[00:48:25] And without checking twitter because yeah that's just so frustrating to read the dodents of comments every day

[00:48:36] And from people who didn't understand anything about your situation

[00:48:42] People just want to hate an you and yeah

[00:48:47] Yeah I mean this is crazy but the problem is even like if you want to make views on twitter, LinkedIn and whatever

[00:48:54] You have to be polarized like you have to polarize the people

[00:48:58] This is like the way this machine works as I was making no view no one's scared

[00:49:02] If people start to look at it because they'll get angry or they get happy

[00:49:06] And because like they feel that you're on the same team or against them

[00:49:10] Then you got views and you got comments and they are

[00:49:13] So it's a kind of the game so otherwise if you want success you have to be like high then success

[00:49:19] And then maybe you will not get hate or maybe at one point you're gonna get physical for something you don't decide

[00:49:26] It would be the same anyway

[00:49:29] Yeah yeah you have to provoke some emotions to have some success on social media

[00:49:34] That's exactly what I really don't like about social media

[00:49:39] I really think I'm not a social media guy you know

[00:49:43] I use them every day because of hacking and because I just love seeing other people work and success

[00:49:50] But yeah I don't like just reading the replies, finding hours per day on twitter

[00:49:58] Yeah that's my thing

[00:50:01] Yeah definitely for me which is cool is like when you do the podcast you meet a lot of people in real

[00:50:06] So you can make real friendships so it's more seeing the news of my friend now on twitter

[00:50:12] And just like trying to share my thoughts and stuff like that because I'm not like thinking the same way like everyone

[00:50:19] For example on mobile apps you don't need to do f**king netives

[00:50:22] If you believe that you're just a f**king developer you're not an entrepreneur it's fine

[00:50:25] But just don't try to make apps

[00:50:29] And this kind of opinion you know is like I believe that can help people

[00:50:34] But otherwise yeah I'm not like so much social media I don't have like Snapchat anymore

[00:50:39] Instagram anymore Facebook I have nothing the only app I have is for messaging is Beeper

[00:50:45] Because I have all my messaging coming in one place which is amazing

[00:50:49] And I can block also many many conversations I don't want to see

[00:50:53] Also my Beeper is always empty mostly and that's like make me so much peace

[00:50:59] Same with mailbox and stuff like that I block everyone all the time

[00:51:04] I do the same event on Twitter, Twitter I block so many people is like insane

[00:51:08] Yeah me too me too my blocking list I don't know how many Beeper are in my blocking list

[00:51:13] But still not a problem

[00:51:14] And if I block you I'm sorry it's just like I don't want to see certain things and some others

[00:51:18] Just like for example politics I don't care

[00:51:21] I have a minimum amount you know there are good book about that I don't remember the name

[00:51:27] But you say you have a number give a f**k by day you can give and the rest you cannot give a f**k

[00:51:34] It's out of my give a f**k list

[00:51:38] Yeah I can understand I'm the same actually I just have Twitter and WhatsApp for friends and family

[00:51:44] But that's it I don't have Instagram Facebook or so on TikTok or what so whatever

[00:51:50] Yeah I just don't like you

[00:51:53] Suddenly TikTok I'm trying to reconnect to my account because I created an account for the French podcast

[00:51:59] And now I want to do the same in English to post a short

[00:52:03] And on I try to do it from the desktop because I don't want to have the app on my phone

[00:52:10] And each time I connect you say too many attempts

[00:52:15] I'm like this is the first time I try

[00:52:17] It's like what the f**k guys

[00:52:18] And I saw this is a common bug and people say yeah if I use the app it's fine but not the desktop

[00:52:23] It's like very made against desktop

[00:52:25] Yeah they don't want you to use TikTok on desktop like Instagram

[00:52:29] Because of course you don't put notification it's less addictive and stuff like that

[00:52:32] But f**k off I don't want to be addicted to your shit

[00:52:36] I have all the shit to do

[00:52:38] Yeah I really have to create an account on TikTok for you need to

[00:52:42] But yeah I'm just procrastinating on this

[00:52:44] Yeah no that's so hard but what I'm doing right now is

[00:52:47] I think I will go more on that is for the podcast

[00:52:50] I'm paying someone to do the short and I'm paying him to post himself

[00:52:54] You know he schedule himself he do everything himself

[00:52:56] So I think I will do the same with TikTok and I will tell him ok you create the account yourself

[00:53:00] You just give me the login but I never go connect on it

[00:53:03] Yeah that's a great idea

[00:53:06] Yeah I should do something like that for you need to just hiring someone to

[00:53:10] Handle all the social media part the communication and so on

[00:53:15] Yeah on Fiverr you have I think for one short a day I pay like 300 euro on Fiverr

[00:53:22] Yeah that's great yeah I could afford that with you need

[00:53:27] So yeah maybe think about that

[00:53:30] Yeah especially now since there are a lot of IA tool and you tell the guy yeah use IA

[00:53:36] You don't care like do the job the fastest possible and the best quality

[00:53:40] And funnily you know like on Fiverr is a lot of people from I don't know

[00:53:45] Philippines or Pakistan and stuff like that

[00:53:47] And they are not really much entrepreneur mindset as we are like very autonomous people

[00:53:53] So when we talk with them they are like asking you many questions

[00:53:56] And like it took me each time I work with someone I don't know a week or month something to tell him

[00:54:02] Listen I don't care about what you're doing the goal is like you're doing and you improve each time

[00:54:07] Like if the video is good as not it's not my problem like post it if you do a good start

[00:54:12] Continue this way if doesn't go good start you improve

[00:54:14] This is your own job and you'll pay for that and you are owning it

[00:54:17] Like I'm not involved in it you can just report to me sometimes like all things are going

[00:54:23] But I don't care to watch your video this is not my job this is yours

[00:54:27] And the guy's like huh okay I'm not telling you to do good about jobs

[00:54:32] The numbers will tell that's your job make the numbers grow

[00:54:36] Like okay I should do that I think you're right so yeah

[00:54:40] But I mean I think for me you know if you were like looking at my like you pay me to do code

[00:54:45] And then you look at my code all the time and critique is easy

[00:54:48] I'm like what the fuck man it's like let me do my job I knew your my job you do your job

[00:54:53] And so I don't understand like why they have this mindset of like

[00:55:00] I think it's because maybe it's visual they work is visual so the people can have an opinion

[00:55:04] But I don't believe my opinion makes sense even I've made many videos in my past

[00:55:09] Like he's fucking do that every day his opinion comes more than mine

[00:55:13] It's like yeah but anyway

[00:55:16] Yeah maybe many maybe many of their clients are just you know control freak

[00:55:23] And just want to check their work every time

[00:55:27] Yeah that happened a lot in the freelance game so

[00:55:32] Yeah but I think you're going nowhere if your business you're like keep controlling

[00:55:38] Freaking everything like you need to delegate and be good at that

[00:55:42] You know push people to be the best version of themselves that's the way you're going to improve

[00:55:46] Because if you just push people to copy what you want

[00:55:50] You or they will have always to talk with you to know what you want because your mindset evolves all the time

[00:55:57] Yeah in the end you're losing a lot of time so yeah

[00:56:00] Yes it's over and over

[00:56:03] Yeah

[00:56:04] Okay man I think we did like a good turn around everything

[00:56:09] I think we could go to my finishing question if you want to

[00:56:15] Do you have something you will have wished someone told you before you started?

[00:56:19] Yeah

[00:56:22] Don't choose Versailles

[00:56:25] Actually there are two things

[00:56:28] Don't choose Versailles

[00:56:30] And yeah I think I wish someone could have told me that it will take yours

[00:56:36] Ah yes yes but this you know it's like I think most of each time I ask this question

[00:56:43] Most of recommendation are something you're probably here

[00:56:45] Like someone probably around I've told you it's extended

[00:56:49] Yeah but you don't listen

[00:56:52] You don't listen to people when you're starting

[00:56:54] Yeah it's like let's look at this guy

[00:56:56] He was super successful and I got so much like better

[00:57:02] Yeah everyone told you a lot of good advice on social media and so on

[00:57:07] But yeah when you're starting out you never listen to anyone

[00:57:11] Yeah for me one good example is in France we had one guy who was making so many videos now

[00:57:17] He's like controversial he's like Usama Amar

[00:57:19] But I think he made such a great job to educate people about start-up world

[00:57:24] How to create company and stuff like that

[00:57:26] Outside of the shit he did personally with his investor

[00:57:30] And he made a very good job but I saw so many of his videos and I still did many mistakes

[00:57:35] Who was said in the video this is a mistake don't do it

[00:57:39] Yeah you can't just believe someone when you don't have

[00:57:46] You have to try yourself and fail yourself

[00:57:50] I think that's the only way to know

[00:57:52] That's exactly why I believe the idea of Mark and Pieter and other things

[00:57:58] Like go fast do shit throw it on the wall see the shit you've done

[00:58:03] Because you're a piece of shit at the beginning we all agree on that

[00:58:07] Later on you will see you were very bad at it

[00:58:09] On everything you've done you were making super stupid choice so make it faster

[00:58:13] And then you will go to the nice part faster

[00:58:16] Yeah I wish I could have understood that at the beginning

[00:58:22] Yeah I think that's the best advice you can give to someone who is starting in the industry

[00:58:28] Yeah definitely

[00:58:31] On your journey of indie making like what was your biggest success for you

[00:58:36] Like you need or your other success you find like very great this is for the short

[00:58:44] Definitely you need

[00:58:46] You need okay yeah and it's like now you're making like one to thousand a month

[00:58:53] Yeah that's it yeah that's a relatively small success from now

[00:58:59] But I'm proud of it because honestly I don't work a lot and you need

[00:59:05] So yeah I just worked on it for years and never gave up

[00:59:10] But that's it

[00:59:12] And which is cool I think it's something we often forgot is like

[00:59:16] It's not like a progressive like linear it's often like crazier and crazier

[00:59:21] Yeah you have hubs of course but you have dance too

[00:59:27] But if you look like if you unzoom usually

[00:59:30] Yeah if you look at the big picture

[00:59:34] Like for example like last year I was like so it took me a year something to reach 1,500

[00:59:40] And then I got big clients 12,000 a month I was like amazing

[00:59:45] And then next month three months after each year because it was too big for me

[00:59:51] I couldn't underlit like he brought everything in the product

[00:59:54] Oh yeah I saw your tweet about that

[00:59:56] Yeah and then I lost many clients also because he was breaking everything

[01:00:01] So I went like 500 down like at 1,000 again after he left

[01:00:07] And I was like oh now if you look like I'm not still at 12,000

[01:00:12] But I will beat it at one point

[01:00:15] Yeah I'm sure you will slowly but still

[01:00:18] Yeah yeah it takes time but now like it took me one year something to do 1,000

[01:00:26] And then I was like I'm not sure how much I will do in the difference

[01:00:27] And things accelerate so bad like I was like what the fuck is happening

[01:00:33] And you didn't feel you did anything you know it's like same same

[01:00:38] Yeah yeah I'm living the same with you

[01:00:41] You know where revenue grows very slowly

[01:00:45] But when I look at the big picture I realized that traffic is growing very quickly

[01:00:52] For me at least and yeah revenue is flowing but just it's just slow

[01:00:58] You know you just have to be patient

[01:01:00] Yeah yeah it will convert and then when you see like for example you're growing

[01:01:05] Like 6%, 10% months and then at the end like 10% when you're like making 10,000

[01:01:10] It's one more thousand months

[01:01:12] Yeah we should say it like that

[01:01:15] Yeah it's so cool it's so cool like to see the difference between like the beginning

[01:01:21] And after a few years but it takes a bit of time

[01:01:25] But yeah do you have a quote something you like to repeat yourself to help you keep going?

[01:01:31] I'm not really a quote guy

[01:01:34] Sometimes it's a stupid sentence and you know it's not even like for my famous guy

[01:01:38] It's like from your dad, your friend, your family, yourself

[01:01:41] You know this is my wallpaper on my screen is think less do more

[01:01:48] Ah that's a good one

[01:01:50] Yeah I guess it resonates a bit so yeah I'm going to this one

[01:01:55] You know that's funny at one point I was when I was like earlier in my journey

[01:02:00] I was making plans you know thinking how we'll do that

[01:02:04] You know do like graphics to do architecture for tech and stuff like that

[01:02:10] No I'm just like trying the dumbest the happiest I am

[01:02:14] And I'm working with an intern and sometimes it's like no we need to think about it

[01:02:19] No no do dumb, do dumb as fuck it's even like broken in security whatever

[01:02:24] Do it if it works for clients they use it we're gonna rethink about it anyway

[01:02:30] So yeah in indie hacking the more experience you have the more dumb thing you

[01:02:36] Yeah and it doesn't mean you're gonna keep it like that

[01:02:40] You know it's just like you want to see if that has an impact on your business or not

[01:02:43] Because you cannot afford to spend like three weeks working on a shit that doesn't have any impact

[01:02:48] So like throw it fast like without fucking security even if you like me

[01:02:54] Certain things I say it's better to users it's fine you know like

[01:02:58] And I checked and we see and that's okay

[01:03:04] Yeah I understand what you need every time I release a feature you know it's full of bugs

[01:03:10] And yeah I just want to try it and if it works okay I fix the bugs and work on it harder

[01:03:15] But if it doesn't work I just remove it and I didn't waste a lot of time so

[01:03:21] But that's something really difficult to understand when you're starting to be an intern

[01:03:29] I think also something we forgot is often when we start in the makers

[01:03:34] In the making it's because we want to do a side project because we're kind of fed up by the current job

[01:03:39] Where you cannot do what you want you know choose the tech you want choose the things you want do it the way you want

[01:03:44] So then you're like oh yeah we use these nice takes I will not have this fucking legacy to take care of

[01:03:48] And stuff like that so you're like doing the best possible

[01:03:51] And then you realize you didn't make yourself a gift

[01:03:54] Yeah exactly I started you need exactly that way just to test if I work because I was bored at my internship

[01:04:06] So yeah

[01:04:07] Exactly like so much stories of people

[01:04:11] Okay what we should be next after you in this podcast

[01:04:16] You know what I've been on another podcast a few weeks ago and I would love to

[01:04:24] To you know just to have the editor of this podcast

[01:04:30] And on your podcast you know

[01:04:33] Okay

[01:04:33] I remember the first name of the guy is Toby but I don't remember his last name so

[01:04:40] Let me just check

[01:04:43] What's the name of the podcast?

[01:04:47] Code and Conquer

[01:04:49] Oh nice

[01:04:51] Yeah so yeah the creator of Code and Conquer

[01:04:55] It seems very interesting you know he has a lot to say

[01:04:59] Okay I don't think I ever saw him on podcast

[01:05:04] As a guest

[01:05:06] Yeah if you give me his contact on private after I can contact him

[01:05:10] Yeah of course

[01:05:12] I will

[01:05:13] Okay so two more things first if you have listened the podcast until now thank you for that

[01:05:19] I hope you enjoyed and if you enjoy send me a text send me a message DM me or the M. Thomas

[01:05:25] You can ask questions talk about more like the goal is to create a community and talk to each other

[01:05:31] And like help each other so you can you can do that

[01:05:35] And otherwise I see I tell you like see you next time and we have one more question for you

[01:05:42] Is where do we send people who wants to know more about you

[01:05:46] You can just go to my Twitter account just type Thomas Arnis on Twitter on your family

[01:05:51] We'll be on the description of the podcast and section link

[01:05:54] Thank you a lot

[01:05:55] Bye

[01:05:56] Bye