From Bootstrapping to the VC World The Advantages of Bootstrapping

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Today I welcome John Rush on the show so thanks for accepting my invitation

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for inviting happy to be here

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's that's that's I'm very grateful you came here because like many things you're doing many projects

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm grateful now like if you can John to

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Present your your path in two three minutes then I will take notes and we're gonna start from there

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. So I started many years ago like

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: 15 years ago or 16 years ago my first startup was bootstrapped and

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I sold it and

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: After that I went on VC path for like 12 years. I was building VC back startups

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I was investing in some of the startup as an angel and

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: 12 years after that I discovered the bootstrap scene in the Indomaker world and I fell in love with it and

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I just left the VC funded world and joined the bootstrap earth and started bootstrapping a lot of projects and

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Today I'm running 24 projects

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Mainly for busy founders all bootstrapped

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I plan to launch a lot more in this space. Wow, that's such a resume. I would like to have the same at one point

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It was painful it was painful a lot of work

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can imagine I can imagine like well, but I have a

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a question about your beginning you say like you started bootstrapped and then you went to VC world

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: What made you change and decided to go to VC when I started bootstrapping?

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that people only bootstrap when they cannot raise money from investors

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So my first start I didn't go to investors because I knew nobody gonna give me money

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like 15 or 16 years old right like nobody would take a series

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly I was I'm still young

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: What was the first project so the first project was a marketplace for students to sell

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: The the help like no

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Would help the not very smart students

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was really big because internet just just happened back then in in campuses

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And then before that people would just kind of know each other and say like you know

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: If you need help with math go to that guy or go to that guy

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was kind of the market and I can automate it that I put all into the marketplace

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I added payments. I had the filters accounts requests and everything so it worked really well in two years

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: We had like thousands of

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Transactions there daily. It was really big and then I had a competitor

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Who just appeared who was even bigger than us and they just bought the whole thing and I never thought I will sell

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I never thought it will even work

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was just like a student project for me and it just by accident

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It started growing and it worked out but it was luck. So I didn't do anything

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Special it was just luck me being in the right place doing the right thing and then being lucky by selling it to someone

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's nothing to learn there really like if you try that again, it will not work

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But I

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Believe this is the same for any project like there are a lot of luck in it

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Unless you get very experienced as you are right now exactly exactly for many people

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: The beginning is a lot of luck and the right thing at the right moment

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But you didn't know you were doing the right thing

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You were just doing a thing and that was the right one at the right moment. Yeah, but a lot I

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Mean now I can predict if something is gonna work out or not and I can predict even the revenue

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So it is boring from that stand right now

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But back then I didn't predict that and when I made that money I

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Didn't know what to do next

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So the only obvious thing people would think of back then was that I had to become startup

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Founder who will raise money who will go to Silicon Valley who will get into

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01]: 500 startups YC combinator or alchemist like there were like three top incubators

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: so there was like this path everybody wanted to have and

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just jumping on that path and

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I raised money. I

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Went into the incubator. So I did all the things

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody else was doing and I didn't even know that I bootstrapped my previous company

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought I just got lucky by building something random and it worked out

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even know the the term bootstrapping. It didn't exist back then actually

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't exist at the time. It was just like people not enough good to raise money exactly

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I thought that's where I thought I'm young like nobody gonna give me money

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So I go there and then I I just spent all my next

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a decade

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Doing the same model like a startup incubator VC money

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: One round second round third round, you know exit or shut down another one like same thing for for ten years

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: In which country you are doing that in Norway. So and I was kind of lucky that

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: The whole thing just started in Norway right when I started like again, that's not their luck

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: so I was lucky very often right like my in in 2010

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Norway started investing into startups and

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Government put a lot of money into it grants and etc. And I just got into that wave

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And the wave just took me

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: forward

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was hard. It was to be honest

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to say easy, but if you're in the right wave in the right time

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It just takes you forward and it was good and bad for me makes very sense like for people doing surf

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You know that if you miss the way, yeah, he would be painful

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, but you know in in my case it sounds like it was luck

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But in reality looking back. I think it was the bad luck for me because

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that it was easy to do this keep you going easy back startup thing

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Just because it was easy to do that kind of stuff. I didn't have any reason to discover other options such as bootstrapping

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: so I stayed in that thing for 10 years and

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Discovered the bootstrap world only in 2022, right?

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I wish I did it earlier because you know once I entered bootstrap world

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Then I saw this great fit between what I can do and what bootstrap world needs because I was great at being scrappy

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I was great at having very few people and producing a lot

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's really bad for we see back startups because in the city that's world

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to spend money you have to pay for ads and your headcount is your KPI

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: No, people brag about that if you open TechCrunch

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: They say this company has you know hundred people 50 people like that's good to have a lot of people and I always had few people

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: right and

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: When you go and raise money from investors you have to almost

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You know pretend you have a lot of people you have to say well

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: We have you know like 20 people but also, you know, any other people

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah exactly

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But in bootstrap world you're proud

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: True you have that right

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Or or you have friends who are just advising you once a year and you call them part of the team, right?

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Just just to live bigger picture on the website

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and and I had to do that

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's that that was something I didn't like doing and there was something that was not helpful

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like fish in the wrong ocean really all those years

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree and

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And the moment I tried bootstrap world. I felt like they exactly value the things I do the best

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Like being scrappy being fast being innovative and and things like that

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think we have a we have a connection issue

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what I can do

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you know the way Riverside works that it will record both of us

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, even when you don't see me it will actually record me and in the final record

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We will both kind of be there so it's yeah, no, I don't have a problem about that

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes I don't hear even your answer. Yeah, yeah

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Say yeah

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But at one point to ask you back good questions, I need to know what you're thinking

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I think I can hide your camera, but you still record it and

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I think yeah, you can do that easier

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: This is where is the settings? Would you video output me wrong to Lation?

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Because if we disable the camera then we will not see it, but I remember there are something

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: There's something about

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: network

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Where it was it might be my

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Change I can switch my internet and see what happens. Maybe it's my problem. Let me switch it

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's try I thought no way as a good internet, but you're not in nowhere right now. All right, so all right

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm on new

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I found the

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Low data mode

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes finally, okay

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go again, so you were talking about the

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: VC world and that was like you feel not the right fish the fish in the right water

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah, and

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I honestly felt that a lot in startup like I resonate a lot with what you shared about like

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You had to add a big team and you don't like that

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was exactly the same like when I was like green startup as well. It was like

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Pain in us. I felt like it's everything is a lie

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't know if you got this feeling but like yeah

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: For example, you have to say oh we are 20 in the team and you put like the picture of friends and stuff like that

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And at the end is just all you and you're like why am why why we do that

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I prefer just like can we be just honest in our business and do things like as we are and everyone will like it

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But in stuff to where it feels so wrong doing that and now in bootstrapping like he was proud to be

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: company one and and things like that and I really love this, you know like

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Right now. I have a discord of community with my project and some people ask things and I'm saying sorry right now

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like in the bed or I'm not working because it's nice for me and they say okay

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: No problem

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see tomorrow and before in stuff to where like I felt like because we we think it's so big

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Then they expect you are like Microsoft and so if you say something human like sorry we're in pause

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We doing it and we eating or we do a meeting that they

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Stuff like that people get so mad and I feel now in bootstrapping mode

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you can be very honest and it's very fine

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And I find this difference like for me change my my day like every day life

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Not for you. I believe it's same

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you're just

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Completely correct. I think there are people

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: who actually enjoy the startup world and they enjoyed this

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: This you know pretend to be bigger than you are, you know, we're suit every day and go through the conferences

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Make partnership calls and and all those things like some people enjoy that

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I know people who enjoy that a lot and they and they don't enjoy

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Being small that they just want to have a lot of people in a team. They want to have

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Meeting every day with like 50 people or etc. So it's just type of people

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Rest I agree

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_00]: This thing like

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Corporate job like some people like now we have kind of a mood where oh, it's bad blah blah blah

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But there are many people loving being in corporate and yeah, that's okay. That's okay

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: They do what they want just don't ask us to come

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I like it. That's it

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it comes a lot to

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Like some people are more into

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: actual product

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: In some people are into building a company

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the boost drop people are usually the people who are into building products not the companies because

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: All right

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Because building a company

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Is when you actually enjoy

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Building a culture the systems, you know having departments having

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: More people and all those things and if you enjoy that stuff then then that's your kpi

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But what happens in reality is that in tech world?

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Most founders are actually the introverts who enjoy building products

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think most people who raise VC money like nearly 99 percent of people I know

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: They actually

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Never enjoyed all those things like you and me like they say same things where when we talk behind the closed doors

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them still run startups with many people

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But they say the same things but they can't say it publicly because they have investors on board

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And and they have to raise their next round, right? But I also know few people who love it and

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: For example one guy he closed down his startup recently

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I tell him like you should boost drop like go and be an indie maker

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And he says no, I just want to have this why

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Where I go to conferences to the physical meetings. I have partnerships. I have people I hire them, etc

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of like it. I don't like to do the work it myself

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I I like running people, etc

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's some people like that. No, I totally agree like for me like going to conference

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to deal with people lately is like my nightmare. It's like

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Put me to hell and I totally understand. I've seen people like enjoying so much being in this state and doing it and

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but as you I came to the conclusion. This is not for me and this is okay

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I know where I should go where I am like

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I like this image of uh, you know, if you put a fish

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Ask a fish to climb a tree they will feel that's his whole life

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel this is this like for me being a startup world

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I am like I am a bad employee because I want to do everything myself

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm taking the job of everyone else. That doesn't make sense

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I am just like they deal with me like so bad

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And now when I am doing it on my own, this is super easy

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like today I want to do marketing I can do marketing because I don't have a role of just being a developer whatever a CTO

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and I I love this freedom

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, that's basically why I'm going this way and I believe this is the same for you like

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Be able to do all this

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Mutipotentiality in this product and building. It's so fun. I find that like that's super amazing

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, so

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: That's something you said which make me very interested

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But I believe this is linked to your belief. It's like you became after the VC world

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: An angel investor

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So even you don't like that for yourself. You're like kind of understand like some people needs like the VC

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Staff and so you're you're helping them but I'm wondering if you

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: do

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Did become an investor like

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Like let's say traditional or you doing different kind of investing in startups than usual

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I started that in 2012

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: right

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: After I got the money and I had had the money to deploy

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So I lived really simple life and I didn't need the money for

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: For my life and I wanted to invest money somewhere. So I put some of my money into stock market

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I bought

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Houses and I put some of my money into startups

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Mostly into startups. I knew like from my network

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was just because I had the money and I had to put it somewhere

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't want to keep the money on the bank just because

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It feels wrong like it's losing its value and etc. Yeah, and and I did small investments

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: from

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: From 10 to 100 k

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Into

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Many startups from a network. I have to say that

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It is just like angel kind of investment

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like regular but but I was not having you know the

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Fund or or people running it. It was just

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I had a network and I saw good project good founder

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I would get to know him or her and then we would become friends and then eventually I would invest

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And usually I would invest

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: My time too like I would invest money and I would probably join the startup

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Either as advisor

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Or as a team member

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Even as cto sometimes very often actually I would join them as a cto

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I would bring myself and the money inside

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So it happened often, but I must say that

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It almost never worked out. So I was terrible investor

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I lost I think you're nearly everything. This is normal

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Being terrible is normal

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think I'm below average because I managed to lose all investments I ever made

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how that happened, but I invested into crypto. I invest into stock market into property market

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And into startups for investments and into currencies five investments

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the only thing you can do in investment world

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And and I did that all and and for some reason I managed to lose all that investment

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what different I think I think the the ratio is like one on 10

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: No

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's something like that in DC where like a one on 10 will will perform everything and the rest will die

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So you you needed to do five more

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I invested a lot more than five. So I had like more than 20 investments. Okay. So in my case

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It almost didn't work for

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: At all and also I even failed to invest in stock market

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I I have bought in video stock

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: When it was like, I don't know maybe 20 dollars or whatever. It was really cheap

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, but I sold it. I sold it. I sold Tesla stock as well. So

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And I ended up either not making money or selling

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: At the worst possible moment. So I have paper bands for that kind of stuff

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And for some reason I always had this different show

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have to be

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Person who loves money and I hate money for some reason. I just try to stay away from money all my life

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You know why because

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I realized that

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Whenever I was making money

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I had enough or more than enough I would lose

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: The excitement of making money through my startups. So basically

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because if you start a startup you make like 10 dollars the first months

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And and you have to be happy about those 10 dollars to make the next hundred dollars or thousand dollars, right?

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, it was really difficult to be excited about this little money when I had more money in the bank

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: my subconscious kind of pushed me to

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Do wrong choices on how to invest my money so that I lose it all it sounds stupid

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that what happened because it could can't be coincidence that I just did so many terrible investments and terrible decisions

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And eventually when I started boost dropping it helped me. So

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I ended up by

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: not losing all my money, but

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Garing to a point where I don't have a lot of money. I just have some

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then when I started bootstrapping, I felt really really excited about

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know one k morar two k morari was so exciting

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You know on top of the world and then you get to five then you get to 10 then you get to 20

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Like all these

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Milestones make you feel really good and it never stops like you keep growing and you just always feel feel excited about that

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, whenever you zoom out and realize that this is

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Not

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: life-changing money

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Then it's not so excited anymore. So that's why I think it's important to be hungry for money

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's almost the key

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: For boost drop success is to be hungry for money that you get super excited by earning anything because I often see on twitter people saying that

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: You know when I see other makers making

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever they make like a lot of money my little profits seem so little. I lose

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Motivation right like that's wrong attitude. So you have to

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Get to a point where you're happy even for one dollar because it's really hard to make even a dollar like like i'm making

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot more than a dollar now

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: but

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Whenever I start new project every dollar is really hard to

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: To get in like it is it's always hard at the start

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I find also that's what making making exciting like

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Because you at the beginning you don't know the recipe

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna get you this money and you don't know if you can do it again

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Like maybe you will get one euro, but can you do it twice?

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Because sometimes it's like one euro by mistake and then you're like, oh, yeah

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I know to make money and you try again and it didn't work

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I really like this beginning of startups more than you know earlier

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You were saying like, um, you know to to make money

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But like there are another competencies is oh you keep the money like how you make that still exist

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is something for me. I struggle as well. Like I don't like to keep money

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like to have this job of keeping the money

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I like to make the money, you know, I like to create the things that make the money

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But keeping it seems so so sure boring

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah job

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You're a typical

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Founder like, you know, I'm just like that and it is very common for for booster founders

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm trying to learn all that and make different things

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But as you I did like an old investment idea with the money I had was wrong mainly only maybe my flat

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Is wasn't wrong investment because I live in it

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But most of them were like

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: terrible decision like I yesterday I was receiving the email of fta ftax ftax

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Like uh, because I I was having money there. I was like having 8 000 there now

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like they send me an email saying okay now we are almost going to reform people

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You can click here to see how much you have and uh 600

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Because last moment I you know last moment just before they close I moved the money into a crypto would like

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Blow down so bad. So now it's like worth nothing. I'm like, oh amazing another good move

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're like my brother so, you know, I put I bought bitcoin in 2017 a lot of it

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I bought it in on Norwegian exchange called bitcoin Norway because I felt like it's in Norway

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew the guys

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Like all safe

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I had all my bit going there and then

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Right at the time when the bitcoin hit the highest

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I get an email from them saying that you know, we were hacked and we're investigating

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know whenever I hear that, you know that nothing is going to be fixed like once once exchanges hacked. It's all gone

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like and I lost everything right and I did good investment

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I I I had no plans on selling. I wanted to stay with bitcoin for like a decade

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But I was not lucky and so I was I was always lucky with products

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And startups and ideas

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And never lucky with money

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's actually good. It's better than the opposite

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I would be pretty sad if I was rich

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But I've done nothing important for the world like that would be you know

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: The worst life I could imagine being rich but not deserving anything of that

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You know inheriting from a

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Prince that died or whatever

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I I I do believe we kind of attract that you know, like if we

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Wanted to be rich and do nothing then that will happen in one point in our life

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But like we we don't want that and I think that's lead me to the question

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to ask it's like what is for you your rich life

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I have so uh netflix show about that which is a very nice question

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I found like what means for you to be rich because probably it's not about having millions say something else

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe otherwise you will have keep them

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm at a point in life where I know pretty well

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: What's that because I have to try all the all the things I live luxury life. I lived poor life. I lived

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Lonely life. I lived family life like everything and and I can clearly say that being rich

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_01]: is having

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: strong family

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And strong community of friends

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Who

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Do the same stuff you do so have common interest with a group of people

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So that you enjoy doing that activity

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: With those people

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: so I and

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: The numbers are not important at all like they they are actually just

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Irrelevant it's just as long as you can keep doing that. It's all good

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think number one is

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Family and children like when I was 27

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really think

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: This will be so important whenever I heard people saying that I thought it's just the bias like they have the kids

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And they say because they have it and what else will they say?

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But now I realized that

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Now it is such a strong

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: energy

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: storage

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: for everything else in life because

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Things get the same every day when you're building business. It's fun the first year the second or third

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But eventually if you're doing it for 20 years

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: things gets

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You know repetitive and sometimes you feel bad sometimes you just don't want to do stuff

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: but

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Whenever you have these close

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: family kids and

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And wife and you know, you get more energy than you come back and you are stronger again

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of the most important for me

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and money is only important for me as

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: As a tool

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: To be used to build more businesses. I really like building products

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I really like solving problems like whenever I see a problem

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to solve it

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Not because you will make money but just because it will make people happy

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And when I see people being happy by using my products

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I get really happy it's bigger for me than money

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's why if I was making money by having amazing investment in in nvidia or bitcoin

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's just money. There is no value. I brought to the world. There is nobody saying thank you to me for that

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But when I make money with my products and people love using them and and and they make their own living

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And their own businesses using my products and they they feel that it's great that they're using it and they feel gratitude

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel really good like every day when I read

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: A message like on twitter

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I get a lot of dms or or public comments where people say thanks for for that. It's it's an amazing tool

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, it just I feel like a like a kid who is being

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You know treat it well by

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: By the others I feel so good like

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Like people say

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: People post this strap string shot saying that whenever I get stripe notification

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel great like I I don't care about stripe notification. I don't even have those

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have them on I don't know what what I'm making like that sounds stupid, but I have no idea how much money I'm making

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I check it sometimes just to create content around it. Like you know, I'm spending that and you know learning this

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Like maybe that's interesting for people, right?

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But before I was sharing that I had no idea

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I just look at the balance and I see I have enough money on the bank

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It means all good like I don't remember what was last year or this year

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But as long as I am above certain threshold, I know everything is great. I'm kind of running but when I

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Get the messages where people thank me

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: That's where I feel this you know spike of happiness and I want to just go back to the product and do more

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Feeling of like seeing people enjoying what you're doing and helping them

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's such a great

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: A great feeling like it's I think it's different to a different difficult to explain this but I feel useful when my product is useful to people

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and and

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: This is strange like

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't know for you, but if my project is like buggy or things doesn't work for them

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: One day I feel very very bad. Like I feel like

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I am I am broken in a way because my project is broken

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is I think not really healthy but but I'm so tied to this

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Then that's really changed my mood compared to how it works or not for people and help them

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have that as well? Uh

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I have to admit sometimes when I wake up in the morning

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And let's say one of my products had a downtime or there was a bag there for a whole night

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have a lot of american clients most of my clients are from american

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So and I I'm in europe so I usually sleep when they use my services

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And if I wake up and I see you know those messages and I realized that people were struggling for the whole day

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: They were like mad for the whole day for like seven eight hours while I was slipping

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel so bad. I I feel so bad that it

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like you know, there is this moment when when you lose your phone or something

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You feel this hold in your heart

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It it feels like like strong pain and you can't do anything because it's it happened

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you dropped something and it broke right and it happened

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot go back in time and same here. I realized that I can never go back in time

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I understand that these people are actually

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Mad at me and I can never fix this even if I fix something now

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They will still can't remember that moment. So it's really terrible feeling and

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the saddest moments of my life

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: When they have mornings like that

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have those mornings

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Not too often, but I have them once every few months

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not looking forward for those days

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, I I totally feel you like you know, my project was broken for six months in a row because I couldn't figure it out

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_00]: How to make analytics at scale because I have millions of devices like sending me

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Analytics data and I was like struggling to find a solution which is not expensive

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And each time I was finding a solution basically I was like, oh perfect. It works and finally it was too expensive

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like fucking was the price of how much I earn or it was stopping to work after

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: 10 days

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So I had this roller coaster coaster of like emotion and people complaining like every week

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was killing my vibe like I was so down for six months

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Late six months like unable to do anything and I was like trying to spend like 12 hours a day in the fucking problem

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And every day was the same thing like I was like why doesn't work or it works, but it's so expensive

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That was very very sad. I I felt like I had killed someone, you know

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just such a bad feeling. Yeah, now it's working again and people are happy again. I'm like, oh, yes

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: finally

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing like whenever you have those problems

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: When you actually make things work and you get good feedback

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: The happiness is

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: 10 times stronger than if you didn't have the problems. For example, like I

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Have many products and some products never have problems because that's the nature of those products

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They are not doing anything critical. So there are no bags. They just work and never break

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And some of them making really good money and make people happy

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But I I just feel not so excited about those projects comparing to the projects where

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Where you have the roller coaster like, you know, people hate you then they love you then they hate you then they love you

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's who we are like we need to hate and love

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: To appreciate the love after hate

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely, but this is a a thing of stoicism. They say like if you

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Disable to if you don't feel the happiness, then you don't feel the pain

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you want happiness, you have to feel the pain. This is like yeah, you feel the difference

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what make you like feeling alive

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to choose like if you want to have like a high high you have to have a low low

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: He has to happen at one point. Yeah, and that's the reason why it's good to have

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's good to be poor

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds funny, but it's good to be poor if you want to enjoy

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Making little money that you'll probably be making at the start of your boostrap project because first year you will have very small revenues

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And you have to enjoy those revenues

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and to do that you have to

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: actually

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Be not so rich so that that revenue makes some difference in your life

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm trying to to detach from enjoying the revenue but more enjoying like

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Making things useful for people, you know, I'm trying to really focus on just the things useful and do that daily

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and enjoying doing that instead of

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I believe this is more sustainable than enjoy like the money and stuff like that or

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Because like money goes and comes and it would be harder

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you'd get like useful every day, then it's very hard to get lower

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you can have some problems as bugs and stuff

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: after

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, actually, you know just last thing about this topic is that

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: yes

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I really see this as the key job of

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Boostrap founder

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Is to make people happy like it sounds cliche, but it's not really important thing for vc back startups in vc back

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: startups

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Your key nobody agree your key job in the in vc world is to have

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You know to spend less money

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: On acquiring customers then they pay you so your customer acquisition cost has to be lower than lifetime value

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the only goal of vc back startup

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a good goal because if you get there you can pour a lot of money into company and that money will multiply

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: In vc back startup you just you should never spend money on growth because it will bring you nowhere

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you cannot bring more money into the growth and you should just focus on making people love what you do

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: by providing them value

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, you have to go negative

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: On aroi like you have to do more for the user then they pay you a lot more

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Because in vc back it's wrong to do that

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But here you have to do that because if you do that every user that fell in love with

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Your product and your solution and you know gives you love back

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: those users will

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Push you forward like when you get hundred of those users

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: These people will actually, you know be your

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Engine of growth. They will recommend to others. They will mention you in the internet

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: They will bring their friends

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: They will give you some support and love so that you can keep doing the stuff

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's really important to deliver as much as possible to the users in the boost-up world

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: At least at the you know before 10 km or r or before 20 km or r

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a very interesting vision. I think I I never realized like I am doing that

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But I never realized that was a strategy, you know, it's just because that's uh,

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Autantic to me to do that like a

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: On the vc world I had more the

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: The feeling like I'm I'm not helping anyone

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Unless I am helping the vc

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Companies because that's the goal when you have vc bag baged like many

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Things where at least for my experience targets to please the vc

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they say at the quarter meeting they say oh, oh you should do that because it will help us to like

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Go to the next step. So you're just like going to the direction the vc sale and it's often very not

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Connected to making the users happy and that's what frustrated me in the first startup

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like we were doing so good for people and vc were always pushing

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Towards another direction than making it good for the users

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like come on guys like we making something that has a fucking impact

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're just going like each action you ask is going all their direction than that

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, definitely

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I resonate with that like boostrapper like making very impactful business

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, I was saying that

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: In last podcast as well, but I like the boostrapper because

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That's

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Bring product where you will never have vc baged product who like, you know, like a five or 10 or 15 k mr

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Product which is like the maximum it will get sometimes

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: In certain like a niche and if it was vc baged then this project will never exist because they will like

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Get refused to get found then because it will not got the niche is too little

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But these users have a real problem and who love to have it fixed

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And if he was bootstrap will not exist then this problem will just be a problem

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And now it became like a not a problem anymore because there are tiny

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Mostrapper will go for this problem and I really love this like

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I find like boostrapper is helping the world to have less problem, you know

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's exactly

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Where I bet pretty much everything

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I I bet all my business on the idea that

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_01]: The world wants small solutions for small problems like

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Very targeted small solutions for small problems

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're right like whenever you're

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Raising money you have to say that my target is this size it's at least 10

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Billion or at least 1 billion has to be there

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And it it means that you have to make your product more generic

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you can't have one feature you have to have 10 because that one feature is only relevant for

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: A market of 10 million not for a market of 1 billion

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And what happens because of this is that all products

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: They're VC backed. They're competing. They are doing identically the same thing

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like if you look at the boostrapper world, you will see that even similar products

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Have very big difference

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Because they're trying to position themselves slightly different slightly different odion slot

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: slightly different stage of the customer

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: segment everything like that and

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Because of this

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the problems are not being solved

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And all software is complicated

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if you want to raise money you have to make software for large

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: teams because

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You will not charge small teams or solo founder a large sum, right?

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why you have to focus on bigger teams and for that you have to focus on features

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That are good for teams like collaboration

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: permissions and things like that

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you give the same software to to a solopreneur

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Or small team, they will probably suffer there because it is bloated by features for large teams

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But you have to navigate there, right?

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you don't have those features, then you can't sell to the large teams and you can't raise money

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you look at the reality

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Like the specialized

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Software is better for everyone eventually

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So we are seeing now that the specialized software made by bootstrapers

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: starts eating

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: The users from the you know VC world as well because all bootstrapers are growing

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They're very few who are not growing like I know nobody like I'm watching this world for like two years

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know nobody who has who was doing 10k morar and stopped growing right? They're all growing

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I know a lot of startups who were doing 10k morar and died

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01]: right, so I

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that uh in bootstrap world

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It's more sustainable. It's more value for that user that's using your tool

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And in a competition with the VC back products, you're just kicking their ass for that specific use case

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: right and

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: That just means that

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: sooner or later instead of having you know, 10,000

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: bigger VC back products. We're gonna have one million

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Small micro sass tools from bootstrapers. That's the future

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I really bet on and I'm 100 percent sure it's going to happen like it's something

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Not pleasant to hear for for both VCs and for VC back startups

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry for saying that but but that's something I really believe in and all the data supports that everything that happened

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: This year compared to last year supports this

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's gonna just keep accelerating because all the tools all the AI stuff

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything just helps more to the booster founders rather than the larger VC back teams

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're so right. You're sorry

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's make me think when we have this conversation at one point because one of the pain of

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_00]: scattered like tiny tiny product is at one point people get like a bit

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Annoyed by paying so different things in so many places

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That's why sometimes we have like bundle or like adobe who has like everything

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So at one point you will probably have a kind of setup for sass, you know, like sass setup is like

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah for for I'm building that by the way

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't know that

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm building sass os so that's exactly to solve this problem

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And operating system for micro sass tools so that you can pay

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: One subscription have one account

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't have same settings and use all those tools and they just talk to each other and you don't have to

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You know deal with like 20 different dashboards 20 different admin URLs and portals

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure a lot of people will do that as well. There will be a lot of other

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_01]: bundles

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Haps

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Operating systems for that. It's not difficult

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And all the micro sass founders will be interested in integrating their tools into that system

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we are doing? We're making the open api standard for this so that every micro sass can implement those standards

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it will be natively available within this operating system

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Which will make it easy for users to try the tools because now you have to sign up for the tool

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to enter the company information

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Log everything but here you can just press the button and it just happens. So

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: as

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: As you mentioned, there will be a problem

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's easy to solve problem and we're still

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Not having a giant monolith made by one company that just you know

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Put little effort into each part. We still have every part owned by a maker who puts his life and heart into it

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Who talks to every user and knows everything and makes it perfect

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you collect those things into one place and just improve UX for those who buy a lot of products

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So that they can kind of have you know one interface for all

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no not that I mean I find that amazing for both side as a user point of view

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to have like credential for everything and payment for everything

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You just have one place where you have everything and it's super simple and all the side as a maker

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You can just focus on your fucking product instead of like

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Doing a feeling for talking and doing

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean that's the that's the dream world

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_01]: What that I want to um, you know create

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Or help create where

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I have this SAS OS where I solve distribution

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and makers

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_01]: build amazing

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Micro products to fill up this

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: ecosystem

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then everybody is happy the user is happy for having less friction

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Makers are happy for having less marketing to do and and less you know operational work and

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone is happy and I think this world

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Is gonna compete hat to hat with corporations and I think it will win because that is

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Like the quality of software within this ecosystem will be so much higher

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And the innovation will be so much faster because if google or microsoft or sales force have to innovate

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They have a

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Team department doing one thing and then you know, they're not interested in anything

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you saw how much time it took google to update their their login window with with a crappy

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Layout

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Can't believe they took so long for this

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And the result is terrible like I thought it's a joke

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought they will change it the day after and say that was a joke a prank

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's it's not so people made that and they get paid and his department

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_01]: right, but it never happens in any making world because uh people are

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Doing stuff for themselves. They have they talk to users and users tell that this is terrible

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: This is great. Like you have direct connection like these people making google login window

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They have never spoken to a single person who uses that right? They just sit in the

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Like never talking to the other side. So I think there is no chance

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: the monolithic and corporate software or even

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: medium-sized companies can compete against the system that's

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Distributed decentralized where every part is made by somebody who who is doing that for living

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Who is doing that with passion like you can't compete with this group?

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely. I find I find it funny like um, I have the same

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Idea about open source. I think at one point open source will eat like those

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_00]: the sass word also because the the capability to

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_00]: implement and create new things like because from external point of view users sometimes don't understand the problem or

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Like don't see exactly what's happening

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you have like everything open then keep people can dig in and and find ways to improve it

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Themselves, you know if they have the capability and they are like developers

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_00]: but I really believe like at one point the the capability of open source software will be

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So big because two links and everything will get better than

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Being closed source will be a problem because you will

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Be slower, you know like you will have less capability to get fast

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: There will be any close software eventually in the world because

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It just doesn't make sense like the reason we have closed software is that

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Back in the time software looked like

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Something to patent something to protect

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It looked like an IP and intellectual property. Yeah, uh today

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't look like that today, you know writing the code is is not the difficult part

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The difficult part is everything else, you know figuring out what to write how to distribute it how to

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the UX and all those things

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_01]: so even if you like you can make it an experiment like you

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You can publish your project on internet

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_01]: The whole code and see what happens

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Like nobody gonna enter the game and compete with you tomorrow with your code like good example is like we have dev hunt

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That's open sourced

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And we don't see

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Other competitors

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Doing, you know dev hunt to using our code, but they could there is no restriction on that

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's no downside on open sourcing, especially if everybody opensource then there's even even less downside. There's upside

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_01]: People get more trust in you they can see what's happening. They can

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Validate all the rules all the algorithms within

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And they can contribute like dev hunt has been built by contributors

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Who just you know

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Gathered up and and helped and it is still the case

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's only the good things

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Coming from open sourcing. So I think we will soon

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Stop even saying that things are open sourced. You will say things are closed sourced

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. So the closed source will be if it's not open source. So now it will reverse

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And also I think

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, like people will invent a new license

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_01]: They'll have royalties

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_01]: similar to music. So basically

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Your project is out others can use it. They can modify it for their own use

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's all good all free. But if you want to modify and compete with the original

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's great for the world, right? Because somebody starts not from the zero but from your point where you stop and adds

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Their innovation there, which is great

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But you want to be

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Rewarded for that and I think there will be like a reward

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Royalty system where they will share part of their revenue with you

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And then both parties are happy. You're happy to keep, you know, working on your product

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they are happy and forking and that's something what I want to do as well

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So part of my vision with SAS OS is that I'm building

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: SAS OS and it's also I'm building the developer system. It's called morsex id

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Where we have this idea of microbes where where microbes can be forked

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: They can be nested. For example, we have a micro for user login and registration

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We have micro for ratings for CMS for for all sorts of things and then you know people

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Makers can be building those

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And get royalties from all the other microbes that use these microbes

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So it is like a long nesting

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Tree where money comes in and gets distributed

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Down to the chain to everybody who has contributed into this

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Software for every line of code that was contributed people get paid

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if this happens

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Two the cool things kind of arise one

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like some makers

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't have to go and make the full project

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_01]: They can do smaller parts. For example, somebody can work just on user

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Login stuff right like user stuff profiles, etc

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And they don't have to do the large project. They can specialize and we know that when people specialize

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_01]: The results are better and also people are more happy because it's often you like some part

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But the other part you don't like but you have to do it because that's part of the business, right?

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And now you can do even less

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_01]: You do less of marketing work

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And you do even less of coding because you don't have to code everything

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You just code the part that you're interested in

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other people would just kind of take these parts and put together in into their own project

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And and launch it for example

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I launch let's say like no code builder and then imagine you have an idea for a better no code builder

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And now you have to build it from scratch and it will just take you a year to get where I am

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And not only then you can build your

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Your your innovation, right?

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So and you probably never get gonna get there because it will take you more than one year

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And now you start right where I stopped same as with science

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like you don't have to invent the atom again, right?

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You just start where the current sign stepped and you add on top of it

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And imagine you can add on top of existing

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You know any project in the world you just take it you fork it and you can add on top of it

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And you would be happy to share royalties because you save so much time

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_01]: By forking it instead of

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Rebuilding from scratch. I think that's the future everything will be open sourced and we will have huge

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Trees of forks

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Where money just flows down the stream to everybody involved and it'll be very fair system

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And everybody will just benefit from you know

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Distributing the royalties just because it lets them build

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Projects with less resources and this also means that boost rappers get even more advantage because

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need a lot of people for things. You can just fork large

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Like project and add a little bit on top

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yourself you don't need a team for that. Yeah

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I really love this vision like I feel like right now

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_00]: The only thing we exist like that is a bit like

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Chrome plugins for example, you have like

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Gmail and on top of it someone do a tiny chrome plugins to do for example ia auto completion when it was not the case in

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's very good. I'll do that very good analysis

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I never thought about it, but it's brilliant

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It is exactly the case you can extend twitter with with new features just with with a chrome plugin

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. I'm seeing people doing that and I do that as well

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so much. There's so much but in in the sass

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Especially in open source and that's something I find frustrated is like, okay, for example, I was using the open source scan ban

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I forgot the name

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, I was needing a feature and so I created the feature for my company and then we had to

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: We had to self host it because like it was not a merge yet and we stopped like paying where we were happy customer paying

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_00]: The cloud version and we're like, okay now

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't get anything because we fork. We just add one feature and I find this is so dumb in many ways like

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You have the the base of open source and software which is super nice

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And then each time we go a bit off track or something the whole

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Revenue model is broken like not people like are paid and I have the same with cap go cap go is fully open source

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I open to everything and there are some people they told me like

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, you know in ninja your project doesn't worry because I use cloud flare and for flare is like a dns is broken in ninja

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So most of people in ninja. They love the product. They would like to pay. I don't know how to fix that for now and

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm not in ninja so cannot trade properly and stuff and so they fork it

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_00]: They install themselves and then they're like, yeah, maybe we can give you like sponsorship and github and stuff

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Like this is not really easy for them and you have to convince your company

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You're giving or stuff like that where I truly believe in your way

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_00]: What you're saying like the license could be like with the with the

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_00]: What was called not share revenue is the

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Royalty

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes royalty is super smart like why the fuck we have that in music and it works so well each time you

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you do a cover of stuff you pay royalty, but in software. We don't have that

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And and no that should be that should be done like definitely and make it easy

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I believe that's in so many ways. It would be nice because right now for example in my

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_00]: In my case for cap go when someone fork it they push on they

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_00]: On they fork some changes sometimes I go there to check and I see oh, maybe that's useful

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So I just copy paste it in in the in the project again

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's the only benefit and I'm not yeah

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that has to be most done the most smoother because right now like even the concept of fork in github

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I find is a bit kind of dumb in a way because like if someone was just to fix something he has to fork it

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_00]: He couldn't like directly do a

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Pull request in the repository or you have to give him rights

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe also at one point maybe something better than github be done for

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: This kind of ecosystem growing and distributing

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a royalty and everything. Yeah, I think there has to be like

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_01]: In my vision

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_01]: There's product that's core like core version of the product

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And whenever anyone forks the product they don't have to bother with all the hosting

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: All the headache they want to still use cloud

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But they just want to have custom features that they didn't have in the in the base model in a base repo

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They fork it

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just happens by magic that

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_01]: They add extra code and they just get deployed to the same cloud that company is still managing the whole whole thing

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You still get all the app time all the updates everything

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the whole world knows that this project now has two versions

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe somebody else

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Will prefer your version versus the other version because you made it like you say in india

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Cloudflare doesn't work. So it's not just one man's problem

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_01]: That is the whole country problem. And then if someone, you know forks it and

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Hosts that then others would use it as well, right?

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But it is a lot of work and you don't want to do that work. So I think it'll be huge value if the

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_01]: threshold

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_01]: lowers and it's really easy to

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_01]: edit

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Features and code of any project and you don't have to bother with all the rest of the infrastructure and DevOps and everything

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I want to do

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So and it's already get a case for our system

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So we all my products run this way within my morse X ecosystem and

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Where I'm planning to do is I'm planning to for example launch

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: The law of no code builders instead of having one no code builder that can

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Build everything like like bubble or something

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that it's better to have you know, 20 of them where each

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Is targeting specific use case, you know, one is no code builder for for

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: cinemas one is no code builder for bakeries and set for because

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be just easier interface

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't want to build 20 projects and maintain 20 repos like it's it's impossible too many people

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But if it's you know, there is a core

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Project and the rest are forked from there and everything just happens

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there is no extra overhead on maintaining these forks and even you know doing it like pool requests and all those things

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Then it's easy then

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there is more we can do

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I think the future is where there'll be a lot of slightly different versions of the same software

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like not just hundreds but

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Thousands I think there will be thousands of versions of the same software

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Slightly adjusted to a certain market to a certain use case

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Certain user types certain company size

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like all those things like for example, if you're a solo maker, you just don't care at all about permissions

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Collaboration methods and all those things you don't even have to see them because they just clutter the interface and make noise for you

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: man, so I mean

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: These these changes will increase innovation

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Because there will be more options to quickly adjust an existing software with a new idea that you think is brilliant

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and then let the people decide whether that idea is actually brilliant

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And it means that we shorten the innovation cycle

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: From years as there is now like if I want to build brilliant project management tool

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: new one

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: After asana or jira

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I have spent years to just launch first version, right?

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And now I can spend like a week after a week. I have as good as existing best thing

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But just slightly different and better. Yeah

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine that now every week

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: There can be one thousand of

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You know improved versions being launched on the world

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And people are trying it out

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's the same as if we took the human evolution and the natural evolution process

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And we increased the speed

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and and we said that now in order for a species to

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Modify or to kind of you know evolve

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You need generations, right? You need like hundreds of years and imagine that you speed it up to minutes

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you know things happen really fast and we will

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You know evolve

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: From a single cell to a human maybe within an hour not within four billion years

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think the software is having the same problem

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Or is evolving really slow because it takes generations of software. It takes like years

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And if that's brought down to weeks

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine the speed of innovation after that

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's funny because like I am a friend which is very deep down into

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: World like it was coming from banking

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Background and he went to crypto world

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something they say in crypto world is like everything happened in financial world in years

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Happen in in crypto world in finance topic in weeks because everything is based on open source

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So everyone is using the new discovery for each other's to make it better for everyone

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really love that like the capability they are able to innovate is insane

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Because everything is open source on this or mainly and I love that and I really believe we should do the same

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Like for product because it will make everyone better product

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think he will kill anyone. It just makes better

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Probably though some will not survive because they are less good in distribution

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: For example, but as you were sharing like if you were the one build the project originally

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: When you're sucks at distribution then someone will distribute it and you will get like

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Raw what again the name royalties

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely this word doesn't want to stick in my head

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, yeah, and you will get royalties and you will be super happy because you don't want to do fucking distribution

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And someone in someone else is doing it. Yeah, exactly. And you know, we see that struggle now that

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You know people who are great at distribution

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't want to be building because it's very difficult to do both at the same time

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing both at the same time and it's it's a torture because it's hard to switch from, you know one

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: mode to the other

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: World and the mode and I think in this case both sides get higher quality like the product will be

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Build better

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And the guy who is distributing the stuff has more time more focus and can do more things

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so it's almost like

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Two co-founders found each other, but they don't have to be the co-founders. There is no risk

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Now you can find, you know hustler and a maker and you know build it together. It's possible

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know chance of that working out is 1%

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's as finding a wife

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But in this case, you know, you are building something and anyone can distribute it

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Like let them compete. Let them exactly the one who doesn't the best. That's your wife, right?

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I I I like this vision because that's something I've started to do on the task I have to on cap go

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm using Algorah. I don't know if you know this platform. Yeah, I actually have a podcast with them as well

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I yeah today. I think or next week

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Just to explain to people who listen to us like I have a problem in cap go

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I posted a github issue about it and then I

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Tag Algorah and I say okay for this issue. I can spend like 50 bucks or 100 bucks or 200 bucks

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever what 1000 what you want and then you post it

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: He will like

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Take the money on your stripe account to be sure you have it

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he will post it on the platform and everyone in Algorah will receive an email notification about like

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: This task is available and often my task is someone starts about it like in five ten minutes

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: They start to work on it and the guy is just focusing on this task

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't know about the project. He'll just himself look the code sometimes two or three people do that

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And the one who saw it the best is paid often

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I also give money to others who have tried because I'm

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they should be paid at all

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So I tip them and because I told them like help each other out instead of just competing

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I don't believe like you should compete. You should help each other out and someone push the solution

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: The other will get help also pay people if they review the code now

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you do like a good review not just saying okay, but like you you bring something on the table by doing a review

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I pay you like 20 bucks something like that

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's that I really love this because like they are not in the company. I don't know them

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I never did a meeting with them. They just like do it if they know how to solve it

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And and often I got like some task. I was like, oh, this will take me like 10 days of doing it

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how to do that

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I post it and the guy like solve it in two hours

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, what the fuck man?

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just because it's fucking expert of the topic

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: He no already like he did it thousand of time and he did it so well like I couldn't do it

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like wow impressive. I have to try that

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I like it try it

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's amazing

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's super nice and you can ask like for example, when is the task link to UI?

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I ask people to film themselves or film the screen to show what they change and stuff

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: People do peer review themselves. So sometimes I have just like

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Accept pay because like two person on three review and the guy they say he was good

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I just trust them and and the feature is in the product

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And people you love it or I like to modify a bit a bit after

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: a while but

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: That was very very good and I really enjoyed this freedom

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I got like so many tasks. I didn't like to do. I didn't know how to do

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I got just posted on Algorah and it got solved like in

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: In minutes. So sometimes I got like very impressed like a guy did this

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: This is very good for the for the company way

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's great idea and actually

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You know if if you're probably open source

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Just no brainer. I think it will be

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You know people who know the topic and work on it. They fix it

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a win-win. I will just try it next week for a deaf hunt. I I will post a few things there and see how it works

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty cool. Yeah

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a try. I really enjoyed the experience

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you got some people trying to do chat gpt stuff

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's less and less I think at the beginning I got I got that a bit

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But they they got like everything got refused by

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: By their work because it was not really making sense and stuff like that. So I think yeah, mainly people now are very very good and

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: became

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Like one of the guy works with me right now as an intern

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it was so good and taking all the tasks all the time and make them perfect

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: He asked me at one point. Maybe you should pay me monthly instead of doing by task

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, yeah, you're right. Like

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Should do that and and and that works so well like I have like four or five makers now or like

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: People in Algorah, they take all the time the task because they have the best doing it

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So I know like when they take them they will like

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Would perform anyone and so I tell often also it's like this guy is very very good

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: He already know the code base. So if you compete be mindful

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: because

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: He would win but yeah, that's for me that has helped me so bad last year

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I spent like a very good money on Algorah and I'm super happy about it

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you'll be back to your

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Coming back to your project because like it's already a very good moment. We're talking together and I enjoyed the talk

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: What are you working on focusing right now on project? Like what's your main project?

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have main project

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: because

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I have the vision to build

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You know SAS OS

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: for where is the the status of the saswas by the way

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So my playbook is this I want to build all essential products that every indemaker needs

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You know starting from the stuff you need to build your project

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Then to

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: operate it to monetize it to grow it

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: To market it and set for so I'm building no code tools. I'm building

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Analytics tools. I'm building SEO tools. So all this stuff for the whole journey you have

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I love them. Yeah, yeah, exactly and I'm using them as myself

[01:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm my own user so everything I built I built for myself first

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I see if it works for me because I have tons of projects

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So I try on all my projects once it works for all my projects

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I launch it for the rest because can it work for me? We'll work for the rest

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: eventually

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I will cover all the needs

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: of a typical boost trap founder

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And once that happens, I will launch this as OS that has all the tools

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Running there because I don't want to launch an M2 OS that has like five tools in it, right?

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to have you know, 100 tools there to cover everything you need so that when you sign up for that OS

[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Then there's only one place where you have tools

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you you you have only one account and you pay only to one place and it covers all your needs as a maker

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that will happen pretty soon. So I'm halfway true

[01:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So it took me a year and a half. So I think

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: After one year, I'll be where I want to be to launch

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: This as OS that's amazing. I love this vision now make me think also

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many tools as the indie maker sometimes you're like, oh, this is shit

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I would like to fix it. But when you look at it, you're like, yeah, maybe I couldn't shout for that

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like a too tiny fix or stuff

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But if SAS OS exists, then it's make a lot of sense to create these tiny tools

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You will be in the SAS OS and and and you can get money because of the subscription of the SAS OS

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. Exactly meaning to have like 10 features to make it worth it pay. Yeah, you will have a tool that makes

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: A little tiny percentage of the fee like

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you get one dollar per user, but it's a small tool

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Right and if you have 10,000 users

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Paying one dollar that's 10,000 dollars. That's that's a good money

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: For the effort made right and I believe that the future is this like we will have less people who want to become

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Billionaires less people who want to become millionaires

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have more people who want to have an income

[01:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not tied to their hours

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, so you build something and then you get paid but you don't get paid for hours

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You spend you get paid for your product and being paid 10k a month for a product

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Is actually huge compared to just having a 1 million in the bank because 1 million will eventually you know

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Turn to zero

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and uh if you make 10k a month

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It just means that you will get 10k next month and probably more

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So there is something that most people would prefer compared to

[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Making more but saving money and then figuring out where to invest the money and all those things

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So and also people will do

[01:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: something

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: they own

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have this, you know crisis of meaning in the world now like people

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: are struggling

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: with

[01:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: With figuring out why do they can exist and what's the goal in life and

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the meaning of life?

[01:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: One solution to that is is to own something

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like your child like something that you own and you put your heart in it

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And it brings value to the world and a world says thank you back to you and it funds your life

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: This is something that brings a lot of meaning into life

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Compared to a regular job or compared to trying to build a billion dollar business

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Like those things are more like a lottery

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You understand that most likely you will not build a huge business

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Most likely you will fail and eventually will have to go back to work and and make the money again

[01:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But here, you know, you own something your name is on it

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And it will it will help the world and the world knows that it's you it's your ideas

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's your sweat on this product

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And and if you make it really good the time you have to spend on it every year will just decrease

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you know, it's it's less and less things to do. It's more innovation less of the you know regular things

[01:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where you want to be you don't want to be working more when you are 40

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to be working less because you're gonna have kids or other interests when you're a 50 you want to work even less

[01:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And and this is kind of the path they can take you there

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And and you're also going to be proud about your whole life because there is something in the world made by you

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And the world gonna, you know, remember this and maybe you die and this is still running in the world

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And maintained by somebody else after you right? This is kind of the new meaning

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe not only there will be other things, you know creating meaning, but this is one of the

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Important it you know, it's similar to how world operated

[01:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Many years ago where every family would do something. There was a family of

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You know people making shoes for example

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and then

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They were proud about this whole thing that you know that they make shoes and those shoes are

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Warmed by people around and people, you know send other people to this shop to buy shoes from like, you know

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Still we have people in italy having these little pizza shops and they are really happy people. I think we need this

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Feeling that we create something because less and less people have kids these days

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Because children solve this problem quite well

[01:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, you create children and and they're in the world and they are being useful to the world

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But many people don't have kids these days and they will not have kids these days

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And even if you have kids these days, most likely your kids will move somewhere really far from you because that's the world

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: today so and I think this is

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Like an island of hope

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: for for creative hard-working people

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: To have meaning

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: meaningful life

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's funny

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you were saying earlier about like if you try to do something like make millions

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like kind of a luck. But I even for the people I know who get millionaire

[01:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: most of them are very kind of

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: having

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Life they don't like because right now they make millions but they make millions in a way that was not meaningful to them

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So they are not fulfilled by that and and having the money is kind of a curse because they felt like they have the money

[01:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So they can do anything but they don't know what to do with them and they end up like

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Doing cocaine every weekend, you know gateways tell us stuff like that

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And because it's very hard to to like it's very important life of human

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I think to have meaning to have purpose to to find this and if you manage to make money

[01:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Buy luck a bit and without doing that then it becomes super hard to find meaning

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And to because you feel like

[01:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't deserve that maybe or that was not well made or stuff

[01:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So it becomes such a curse that people are not really like enjoying this life there

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like having the money, but they don't enjoy it and

[01:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It felt like not very great and

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I've met some and they were like, yeah, yeah, take drugs with us and like get wasted. I was like

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean like I'm very good with my life. I can't do that

[01:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Like when I was younger, maybe I was doing things shit because like I didn't feel great in my life, but now

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This work makes me super happy every day. Like I like to put things out in the world

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I like to get the feedbacks of users and find my project is helping and useful

[01:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't need that anymore and when I see them

[01:19:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like that's so sad like you you managed to make so much money and that's even made you even less happier

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have this friend

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a lawyer and he hates his job because all lawyers hate their job and

[01:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I asked him like he's trying to be an indomaker now and he spends one minute every week on that probably

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe five minutes and then like telling him why don't you do it more? Like you're making, you know

[01:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: 700 a year

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like half of that is 350. It's a lot of money too. So work

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Two days a week working five days a week and you have time for your in the making project

[01:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like now that will be getting difficult. I'm

[01:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna be losing money. I'm like, well, you can't look at that this way

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to lose it then you should not slip because you're losing money when you're asleep

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You should not talk to your girlfriend because you're losing money

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you talk to her and he's actually in that position where he doesn't spend time on anything

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: He not even on friends and and now he understands that and and I tell him what's your goal and he says

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: My goal to keep working really hard on this lawyer job and make money save money

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And then eventually free up myself to do this

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: My own project that I really like and I'm like so now you're 38

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So you've been doing this since you're 20. So you're 38 now

[01:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're pretty far from that goal yet. So maybe gonna take you, you know, 10 years

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You're gonna be 48. So you are 50 years old

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Your brain is pretty much

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: You know all not innovative anymore. And this is when you just made

[01:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Money after suffering or all your life living

[01:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: The life you never enjoyed and now finally you can actually leave the life you enjoy

[01:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of your goal when you're old and

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's difficult for me to imagine that 50 year old person

[01:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not ages, but I haven't seen that where somebody who is 50 years old starts something and just works out because you're just

[01:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not seeing what young people want. You're it's difficult to innovate at this age

[01:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It's easy if you've been innovating all your life and came here, but if you've been a lawyer all your life

[01:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Then most likely you're you haven't developed that innovation skill for your 50s. So so basically you're

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: exchanging all your

[01:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: best years

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: For the money to get the freedom to do something you love

[01:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: On your last years where you're not in a shape to do great stuff. Why not now?

[01:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Why not now?

[01:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The fire philosophy

[01:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's make me think to that so bad, you know the idea of fire is like

[01:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: uh, it's

[01:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Something like uh, you you save a lot to retire early

[01:22:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you want to retire at 30 or 40 stuff like that

[01:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So you the idea is like you you don't spend anything you don't leave until you manage to have like

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: The amount you wanted and then you can just be retired

[01:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And for me at the beginning I was younger I was interested into that but I found like so that's mean you're betting

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You can save enough to make enough money that you can retire early

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you retire early

[01:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is every people I've seen retire they got like they don't know what to do

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: They they basically lost and some got like very depressed because like the only things they were making purpose to you

[01:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You lost it because you're not doing it anymore. Yeah

[01:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And and in the same time this is kind of a weird bet because it's mean you're thinking like okay

[01:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You will manage to save enough you will manage to make enough you will manage to sell healthy

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You will manage to do it on time and this is a lot of bets

[01:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to do and maybe you're gonna reach like 49

[01:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And you were expecting to retire at 50 and then you got cancer or whatever and like you fucked your plan

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Where I yet for me that doesn't make sense anymore. In the best case scenario

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: If you are still healthy and everything

[01:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: The chance that you actually know what to do the chance that you can actually

[01:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy life outside of that thing you were doing is very low because you just got used to

[01:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Doing that thing you were doing

[01:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You never developed all the skills needed to be independent and making independent business

[01:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you never done it. You you only watched others doing it

[01:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But you've been working on the day job every day doing tasks from your boss, right?

[01:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[01:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Try and find an example

[01:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know an example of those people, you know, like there must be somebody who has done that

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know anyone and I know a lot of people maybe there is one person

[01:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, but you know betting on being that

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: exceptional person

[01:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Is really bad way of you know, living life like, you know, I will be the one percent. Well

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: There's one percent chance that you'll be one percent. All right. Good luck with that. Yeah

[01:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I I like the I don't know where I saw that but there are philosophies saying instead of retire

[01:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: late

[01:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone said I retire often like so his idea is like every year

[01:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to have like one month off or a lot of time off compared to like with late in your life because that's your young age

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Where you can take this time to do very nice things spend time with family with kids

[01:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Exploring the world. That's where you have the energy when you go to be 60

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Exploring the world will be which way more difficult job and less enjoyable than when you're 30

[01:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I will be hard even when you're a four year people think, you know, old people are the six year old

[01:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you take somebody who works modern day jobs on the computer, I have

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people in my companies. It's like almost hundred people and

[01:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: None of them are healthy like zero every single one of them is unhealthy and they're not even a four year

[01:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Like they are having health issues. They are not having energy to do anything

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That's you know, sporty or stuff like that most of them are trying to make kids and cannot make kids

[01:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Because just doesn't work for some reason because they hadn't haven't had healthy life. They sat on the computer

[01:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Work for all these years

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[01:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: The expectations that we will be, you know

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Healthy at four year and it's like it's bad expectations most likely

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: No, like if you're

[01:26:23] [SPEAKER_01]: No construction worker, you'll be healthy because you're outdoor doing stuff

[01:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But if your computer, you know laptop class

[01:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you're just aging, you know, 10 times faster because you're having no other life than this

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: computer work

[01:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[01:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And even if you do your best like for example right now, I have a standing desk to try to not be sitting all the time

[01:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But even that this is not enough like staying in front of the computer is not really what we are made for

[01:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you compare like I'm I'm doing a lot of active stuff like I live on a

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I have a garden. I have animals. I have vegetables growing and things like that

[01:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I move a lot

[01:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But when I go

[01:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And meet people who who have no computer jobs, you know

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They move in like in one day they move more than I move in one week

[01:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Just because you know all their kind of daily stuff

[01:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Requires them walking somewhere moving something standing sitting, you know all those things

[01:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, well you can stand on your desk, you know, but if you count the

[01:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: The movements you've done while doing that, you know, your your heartbeat going up and down

[01:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's better than nothing. It's better than nothing

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But we as as animals work and if you know

[01:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We're still our body is still an animal body, right?

[01:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And it needs a lot more just look at the dog

[01:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not having walks

[01:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It just gets sick fat and you know

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Dice at the age of eight instead of living to 18 years

[01:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It happens to dogs. It happens to horses

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Almost all animals are like that if they don't move and we are like that too

[01:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just we invented great healthcare that kind of fixes these problems

[01:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And helps you stay kind of alive. I would say delay

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but the quality of life is low

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Like if 40 year old person now has has pretty low quality of life because it's difficult to

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You know overcome this depth of

[01:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Movement that you collected over these years when you had the university

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Where you sat still a lot and you know, you didn't sleep well and then

[01:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Your your job where you drive from door to door and you sit in the cubicle

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Then you drive from door to door and you sit

[01:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Play computer game then you sleep then you watch tv series. That's the the modern life

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And and that's you know coming to this topic

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Like uh, that's one of my other projects like I had this tweet

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted we're going to this way perfect. Yeah, I had this tweet on twitter that went

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: viral like it had like almost 2 million views

[01:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: On twitter. I got a lot of hate as well for some reason people

[01:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like the yellow filter on turkey

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Was something people hate. I don't know why I got it from charge. GbD

[01:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I had no idea if if it's good or bad. I just look oh yellow cool

[01:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It looks like a sunset and the other one was bluish. It looks like water like whatever

[01:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But somehow people thought that yellow filter on turkey means

[01:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Bad, I still I don't understand if somebody knows why it means bad

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Just tell me I saw the picture. I was like, okay nice pictures. That's it

[01:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love the picture too. Like it's different like it's clear turkey particle

[01:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I had people sending me

[01:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: messages

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: In twitter, you know telling me

[01:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: That they will find and rip me apart like for that really it's kid. Nobody knows where I leave and I will never expose that

[01:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, internet is difficult

[01:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So once you go outside of this in the bubble or found start a bubble

[01:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is like 500,000 people maybe or 300,000 once you go to over a million views

[01:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You get

[01:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: strange people

[01:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And some people are so negative and they're just writing things which are terrible to read

[01:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And terrible to comprehend. But you know, that's that's internet

[01:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So I closed eyes on that I think it's it's bots or whatever. Those are not real people

[01:30:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So one thing I want to do with the better to think that yeah, we're the in the maker village. I said I see the trend

[01:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[01:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I always did with business like all my life

[01:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I never built

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: product for existing hype

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Or for something that was obvious because it's really bad way. It's like buying this stock that's going up

[01:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you should not buy stocks when they go up

[01:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to buy them when they go down because then they will eventually grow, right?

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: One yes

[01:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a good problem. I start over my wife bought me something some food, but I don't know so

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I always do the project

[01:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: for the future trends

[01:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I highly recommend people to only do that because if you do for the past trends

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Then you're gonna see decline eventually until you build it. It'll be even, you know

[01:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Pusser trend like you should see the opposite. You should see something that's

[01:31:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Starting to happen

[01:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's small. There is nobody really understands that's happening yet

[01:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But you understand because you see something others don't see

[01:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you predict that this thing will be growing

[01:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you are the one who builds a product for that growing

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Currently non-existent almost but like tiny niche, but that's growing

[01:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a problem a niche a segment or whatever that's growing

[01:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: then

[01:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: When that thing grows it will take you with it

[01:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And you were talking at the beginning exactly so I said I was lucky

[01:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think I have very good intuition and I'm really good at spotting

[01:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: what's

[01:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Growing and nobody understands that yet because people usually look at the mainstream

[01:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You know agenda and this is not mainstream. This is something that's

[01:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Not obvious and one thing that I see that's not obvious

[01:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: is that

[01:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: People who are into building things

[01:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They tend to consume less so the more you produce the less you consume

[01:32:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot consume a lot if you want to produce right

[01:32:55] [SPEAKER_00]: That's so true. See nice. I started podcast. I'm not listening podcast exactly exactly exactly that

[01:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That's like it happens everywhere when you build products

[01:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You stop using other products

[01:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: just because you know, it's just

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That

[01:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Drug dealers don't consume their own drugs and I think like we will see that people will

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Consume less if they produce something so there will be the whole class of producers people who create something

[01:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: They create software. They create art. They create things products all those kind of things

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And imagine that

[01:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: These people

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Will have hard time in the world because the world is optimized for consumers and it means that

[01:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: The whole agenda of the mainstream world

[01:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Will not be satisfying for them

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: both

[01:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: the values

[01:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: The daily routine and especially once you get you know kids etc

[01:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you want your kids to have slightly different agenda

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So that they don't become the consumers. They become producers and creators

[01:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So my idea with the indomitrious will is that

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a place

[01:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Where the whole mainstream agenda of the place will be about creating

[01:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of consuming

[01:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be both for the people and it will be easier to create when everybody around you is creating

[01:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like silicon valley is so great because of course. Yes

[01:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It works for vc back startup. So this is basically

[01:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: The silicon valley for bootstrap world

[01:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Where where everything will be around creating because I clearly see that

[01:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: The more people create the more creative they become

[01:34:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Especially if you start creating

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Other things than your primary thing like for example, if you're a software creator

[01:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it's great to also do other type of creation like build something with your hands like a chair for example

[01:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not gonna make money on that. I like poetry. Yeah, for example

[01:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And people who have that side hobby

[01:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: They are usually better at the main hobby too just because it makes you more creative

[01:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and the modern world

[01:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Is all about consumption

[01:35:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Just go to downtown of every city and try to find a place a house where you can enter

[01:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And make your own chair like just try to find that you will not

[01:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You will find restaurants movie theaters shops everything where you can buy stuff

[01:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But you're gonna find nothing

[01:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: When it comes to creation and I want to make a place where it'll be just about creating stuff

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Like because consuming is easy. You will always find something to consume but here will be all

[01:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be great for the makers

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And also it will be great for makers with kids because I see that more and more people are giving up on

[01:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: government raising their kids

[01:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Because government raises

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: The kids who are good for the government who are the

[01:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Who are consumers, right?

[01:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And here your kids will be raised

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: In the society that's creative society that creates and they will be most likely part of this

[01:36:23] [SPEAKER_01]: They will kind of learn these values and you know, enjoy these values

[01:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is very small now

[01:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That is not as big it is not like, uh, you know, uh, it's main agenda. Everybody's

[01:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: agreeing even with things I say

[01:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But I see the number of people who think this is a good idea and who want to join such kind of community

[01:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Is growing and I think it will just keep growing and keep growing

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if I pioneer this thing

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I will grow with the movement. It's a long-term bet. Maybe it will take five maybe 10 maybe 20 years

[01:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a long-term bet

[01:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But I have this bet that the creators will go into this world

[01:37:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, definitely definitely. I agree with you

[01:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really like your vision because you know, I have also like a eco village project where we want to do things differently

[01:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But definitely not the vision about like it's been a community of makers and people doing things

[01:37:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I totally miss that where I am and I'm searching that all the time

[01:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Funnily but yeah, that's that's also

[01:37:26] [SPEAKER_00]: The thing I believe personally what I believe is like the world we're living right now

[01:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Where everything is about construction has not a lot of change to continue the way it is

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Because like many things are not working and we know about that

[01:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So my idea about the eco village is we to create a system where it's like self sustainable in many ways

[01:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Like for vegetables water electricity and stuff like that

[01:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And we learn by yourself and we learn like techniques to do things ourselves

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, the building will be will be built naturally with the material we have on the

[01:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So that will make us like do everything by ourselves. By the way at the end of next month

[01:38:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to do like a workshop to know how to do health building which is made with the ground

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And and that's what we really want to do and we have choose madera because like

[01:38:16] [SPEAKER_00]: This place has an amazing weather condition like it's uh, they call it like spring spring island

[01:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And a second point I just realized while talking with you which make madera amazing for this kind of places

[01:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: In madera everything is a bit harder to buy because it's an island

[01:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And so you tend to do things more by yourself because consumption gets harder

[01:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something I've done in my life. Like for example, I block

[01:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Social media in my phone or make it super hard to access

[01:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Then I prefer to to build instead of consume and I think yes madera island is bringing this in real life

[01:38:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Like if you want to buy something in amazon, you you know, it will take 10 days

[01:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe doesn't pass the border or things you don't know

[01:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have doubt it will happen. So you prefer to do it yourself or do it another way

[01:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Than uh, than buying everything that because it's so easy. It's two clicks and the next day you have it

[01:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So I really realize with you talking about that like madera. It's such a good place for that for producing because

[01:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Like consuming is a bit harder in certain things. Yeah

[01:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You're getting the whole thing pretty right. So you're one of the people

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Who are understanding this whole thing early? And

[01:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There are more people like that

[01:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But it is far from mainstream

[01:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think oh, yes

[01:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll just keep doubling every year and soon

[01:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It will be the new norm. So there will be like a creator class

[01:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Where these people will have very different

[01:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: lifestyle and part of the lifestyle will be

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Where they limit their access to cheap dopamine

[01:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that's

[01:39:59] [SPEAKER_01]: presented in the cities

[01:40:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's what cities are

[01:40:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a source of cheap dopamine

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_01]: From consumption like you can consume every day little things and if you feel good, you come home

[01:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it's even hard to do your work because once you

[01:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You know do that. Yeah, that's so much for more of everything

[01:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, also your brain is very weak like whenever you get

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Easy dopamine is very hard to go and do difficult tasks because your brain wants again something easy something

[01:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Quick and now you are sitting and doing a task that takes four days. For example, it's really hard to even start

[01:40:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're seeing huge epidemic of this illness

[01:40:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Where makers founders employees, they're not able to do difficult tasks because of all this, you know youtube twitter

[01:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: internet Wikipedia

[01:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: serious malls

[01:40:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Entertainment everything just makes your brain really weak. I agree so badly

[01:41:02] [SPEAKER_00]: This is insane like when I see people like

[01:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Addicted to the phone or tiktok or whatever and then yeah, I don't know. I don't have time to do that

[01:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel motivated. I'm like, yeah, dude. Like I mean it makes sense

[01:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You're just addicted to many things and then making the right things you want

[01:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Are not possible because of addiction, but for many people like they don't see that

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: as addiction like this is

[01:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: a bit sad, but yeah

[01:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I I I totally resonate with you like it becomes harder and harder and that's why I live in a village

[01:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Basically because I am not in the city. So then there are way less temptation when I live in the city

[01:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like I'm kind of a junkie. I want to try this food

[01:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to do this there and go there and I'll go this concert and then at the end of the day

[01:41:46] [SPEAKER_00]: You didn't you didn't work

[01:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So you didn't produce anything that make like sense for a long time because the dopamine dopamine works for

[01:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: A short amount of time, but you're not are fulfilled like on the long term as I am when I'm on my village working on my stuff

[01:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly

[01:42:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[01:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, something happened with my camera. So basically, yeah, you know, it's uh, it's so hot

[01:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in

[01:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Here that my phone collapsed. So he doesn't

[01:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Send the video anymore

[01:42:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, yeah, that's happened. Anyway, I think we we're getting near to the end of this podcast

[01:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You have another one soon. I believe so we're gonna we'll go to the finishing questions

[01:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[01:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for your time. I really enjoyed this conversation. We should talk more about that because like we really

[01:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like it. I like it. You know what I'm thinking. I actually want to do a little of

[01:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we have a lot of common topics and I like them and especially about you know, the future about the village about the

[01:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: makers and

[01:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you know how to be

[01:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Happy maker etc

[01:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it would be cool to

[01:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Have more discussions around this because I think people will be very interested in

[01:43:03] [SPEAKER_01]: In these topics and maybe we can you know bring in more people to talk about this and keep talking about this just to

[01:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to open source this whole idea

[01:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So my goal with the indymaker village is not to make money out of it. I want to open source it

[01:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to have contributors. I want to

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_01]: You know have everyone being involved in building it both with, you know

[01:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: resources time ideas

[01:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: advice and everything

[01:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's make me think about this open source things. I don't know if you know but estonia

[01:43:36] [SPEAKER_00]: State system is open source

[01:43:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And they start to share it with Finland no way also is starting using it and basically in europe is going to be implemented everywhere

[01:43:45] [SPEAKER_00]: there as for now the project is to do like

[01:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: the

[01:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: To have the same base everywhere in europe on the same system which is open source for

[01:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: unique identifier for people like you will have a one unique number

[01:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I saw it

[01:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and and that's lead by by estonia and it's fucking open source

[01:44:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I am like so happy about that because like this is so dumb like every country is doing his own thing when they could like

[01:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Have common

[01:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Work on things and I think we should do like yeah. Oh, I am very convinced about open source as you

[01:44:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[01:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So

[01:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're right. I think

[01:44:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Open source is not only the case for software

[01:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think open source is the case for

[01:44:34] [SPEAKER_01]: All new ideas like all open source ideas will thrive

[01:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically if you look at what i'm doing now with my business i'm i'm sharing every little step

[01:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I do like on growth on

[01:44:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Marketing on building and I see my business as being open sourced my life

[01:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: You know my my founder life is an open source life where I share everything and people know

[01:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Give me feedback and and i'm happy with that. I'm i'm actually planning to document everything I do

[01:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: uh, I will go to

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Twitter and collect all

[01:45:13] [SPEAKER_01]: 30 000

[01:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Times I posted something or replied and I will turn that into kind of an open source book of everything

[01:45:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So the people can learn super nice

[01:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: That's basically why I do the podcast as well

[01:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like I I do want to share and to make people like

[01:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Understand the journey and how they can find their own because often

[01:45:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people just share like the

[01:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: The external life you know like the the success and stuff like that

[01:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So then when people compare to themselves, they just like feel sad and bad and

[01:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And stuff but when you do like for example the podcast and talk to people you understand like

[01:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: They fear you don't understand they struggle and stuff like that and that makes

[01:45:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Way more value for me as a listener and for people who listen down

[01:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Just looking success and then you look like you're doing shit on your own

[01:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's yeah, I truly believe like in that that way of sharing

[01:46:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's the way to help other people and to realize they don't need to

[01:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Be be super big. They can do things they like and do it properly like

[01:46:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a bit for me the vision of an artisan

[01:46:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You know before we had this kind of thing where you are the artisan for the shoe for the

[01:46:27] [SPEAKER_00]: The furniture and stuff and there were just a few things but they were super happy about it

[01:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And everyone loves them for their work, you know

[01:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's

[01:46:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a fun fact that when I was little

[01:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people did that like basically the the current world is not that

[01:46:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Old like, you know the globalism where where things produced in a huge fabric and then like even 10 years ago

[01:46:53] [SPEAKER_01]: If you go to any town in europe

[01:46:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Most places

[01:46:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Is

[01:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Would be family owned restaurants shops everything now nothing is like that not now everything is owned by star bags and by you know

[01:47:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Other chains etc. But when I was a kid like 30 years ago

[01:47:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It was only that like you could only find chains in large

[01:47:16] [SPEAKER_01]: downtown in the cities

[01:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think

[01:47:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's something

[01:47:23] [SPEAKER_01]: intrinsically valuable in that

[01:47:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Where people feel more impact to the world they feel more useful because I think there is a

[01:47:33] [SPEAKER_01]: big pain on people who work on

[01:47:38] [SPEAKER_01]: On regular kind of jobs because they end up by you know, uh feeling

[01:47:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Not that useful not that important

[01:47:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They can be replaced easily and they were replaced many times throughout their life already

[01:47:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But when you're running a little pizza shop

[01:47:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you can't be replaced for the people who love that shop who come from neighborhood, right? So you have this, you know, uh

[01:48:06] [SPEAKER_01]: fans

[01:48:07] [SPEAKER_01]: same as

[01:48:09] [SPEAKER_01]: In boost trap world like the difference between boost trap and vc back when I was a vc back

[01:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We had a lot of customers too

[01:48:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But nobody ever said I love your product or something like nobody ever said because usually the people who buy your

[01:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: product were employees of other companies and they just bought it and they don't care that's their job

[01:48:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They have no feelings

[01:48:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But now I my customers are mostly other founders other boost trap founders

[01:48:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And it feels so good to hear that

[01:48:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You know feedback from them and I think that kind of work will be

[01:48:45] [SPEAKER_01]: The future of work and I want that to be future work

[01:48:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So that everybody feels more pride in what they do

[01:48:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That's funny you you're sharing that because I think lately if I look back in the last two years

[01:48:59] [SPEAKER_00]: most of the product I bought are

[01:49:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I saw the founder I like him and I like the project and I was having the need

[01:49:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I buy that because I support this person in this project and they will help me

[01:49:11] [SPEAKER_00]: In instead of I think I'm not paying any big software anymore from big startup thing

[01:49:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Mainly or the only one I base because they were like startup founders like bootstrap and they raised money at one point

[01:49:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's it. I've stopped to support like big project. There are no heart in it, you know

[01:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah

[01:49:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Same here. I think that's pretty cool because

[01:49:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You feel great at buying from them too, right? Because you feel they're

[01:49:41] [SPEAKER_01]: They're supporting you you feel you make them happy

[01:49:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You feel you're doing the right thing and but when when you buy from large corporation

[01:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, nobody's gonna unspree you if you even send a message

[01:49:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe some support agent going on for you in four days with the message like

[01:49:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we received your message. We're gonna add it to the backlog and maybe never implement it, right?

[01:50:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[01:50:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But with the with the booster founder, you know that if you give them a feedback

[01:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And it makes sense. They will actually just you know ship it the week after or day after

[01:50:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I

[01:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Funnily I had this experience with riverside riverside that was a project

[01:50:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Bootswrap at the beginning and I bought it very very very early

[01:50:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they raised money and I was like no don't raise please don't raise

[01:50:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Because before the support was amazing the founder was answering things and that you had super nice health and stuff

[01:50:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they were debuting you then they raised money and they were like I think

[01:50:40] [SPEAKER_00]: They probably grow at one point very fast and then support become shit

[01:50:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like a robot answering your shit and I was like, oh god again. Why did you raise money?

[01:50:49] [SPEAKER_00]: The project was amazing stay connected now. I think it's better. They came back to

[01:50:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Day thing but yeah at one point it became so bad

[01:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Like and and I got that so many times like oh the thing is raising money. Okay. I can sell the plan

[01:51:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I will find

[01:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they have to be an alert about projects

[01:51:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Raising money so you know you have to answer subscribe

[01:51:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[01:51:14] [SPEAKER_00]: That now I have this and I am also like some people contact me, you know, they say oh, we are in wild combinator

[01:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: We're doing that and we put that for free or for cheap. I say, thank you a lot

[01:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate you contact me but since you say you are in yc

[01:51:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I will especially not subscribe and not use your project because you have a high chance in two years

[01:51:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You're dead and I will change again. Yeah following both rappers

[01:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You see it's funny that now you trust more

[01:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Those who have no VC funding. They're not in the YC

[01:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And they have very few people because also if you see the news that we're hiring 20 people

[01:51:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You understand now that now you're gonna talk to

[01:51:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Random person who doesn't know the product well

[01:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And before you talk to the people who are building the product right and and you like that because they understand you and you have a chat

[01:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're not happy. You're not happy when you see that the company is hiring people

[01:52:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So the whole thing turned upside down

[01:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you don't want your vendor to raise money go to the YC or hire a lot of people. It's a bad sign

[01:52:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and we which is great for us. Which is great for us because you know, we're on the right boat

[01:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're doing something that gets uh, you know

[01:52:35] [SPEAKER_01]: More important and more competitive

[01:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's not only you and me who think that I think it's a lot of people think that like now I have

[01:52:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Like year ago. I only had solo printers in my customers only like nobody else

[01:52:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And now

[01:52:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Half of the new customers I get are from medium-sized

[01:53:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Companies from companies doing pretty well from companies

[01:53:04] [SPEAKER_01]: With the high revenue or with the VC funding. I have maybe very YC

[01:53:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Companies in my customers too across my products

[01:53:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And uh, because they also start liking us

[01:53:18] [SPEAKER_01]: right like back then they looked at boost rappers as

[01:53:21] [SPEAKER_01]: as

[01:53:22] [SPEAKER_01]: strange entrepreneurs who are doing jokes there like it's it's not serious you cannot buy from them

[01:53:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And now we became from we cannot buy from them

[01:53:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like the opposite like they want to buy from us because oh they can see that

[01:53:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You know all the concerns are not true

[01:53:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Like give me one example of VC of bootstrap founder who has

[01:53:46] [SPEAKER_01]: decent number of users

[01:53:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Who you know abandoned the project or who suddenly they don't know died or whatever like like those things never happen

[01:53:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it happens when we see from the startups

[01:53:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I know one which is an exception. But yeah, I mean in VC world is like 99%

[01:54:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly in the VC world by default your bet is that they will go out of business

[01:54:11] [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the money the statistics right in boostrap world

[01:54:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Your bet is the opposite most likely they will not go out of go out of the business

[01:54:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So the whole you know the opposite thing which is good. And I think uh as time goes

[01:54:27] [SPEAKER_01]: People will trust more and more

[01:54:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And eventually, you know the table will turn

[01:54:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but for me even the best combination is like a bootstrap or would you fucking open source?

[01:54:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Then I have company they come sometimes like no risk at all. They come and yeah, they say

[01:54:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you're solo. They say yes

[01:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's they say this is scary for us because if you die tomorrow what happened

[01:54:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I told them this is fully open source that you can click in a button and run it yourself if you want

[01:54:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like there are guys people doing that themselves and the guy like okay, where do I sign?

[01:55:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need to do a self speech. I just say like uh like I am solo

[01:55:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I will listen to you and if you have a problem you can can get out anytime

[01:55:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You are no looking like even if you don't hate me at one point and you still want the software you can do it

[01:55:19] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, oh wow, that's amazing

[01:55:21] [SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the best defender of open source model even for VC back startups because they go out of business

[01:55:28] [SPEAKER_01]: They win more often and they will not send you zip file with the code when they do that

[01:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: They just shut down and that's it. They say like download your data or whatever and

[01:55:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them just shut down immediately

[01:55:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[01:55:44] [SPEAKER_00]: There's also something I find interesting in the open source world is the

[01:55:48] [SPEAKER_00]: What make you know, often users are like, yeah, you're growing and you're going in a direction

[01:55:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like

[01:55:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But I cannot do anything about that

[01:55:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But now in open source if you go against your users, they would just like run it on themself

[01:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And so they know they have leverage also on you and I think this is very healthy relationship

[01:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know because it's both like you keep them

[01:56:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But they are also a way to do themselves

[01:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to keep them happy customers more than trying to just get the most money out of them

[01:56:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And love them like for example, like there are many software like oh, yeah

[01:56:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We're making people pay 15 euro and now everyone likes us and we don't have like people doing the same as us

[01:56:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So we triple the price and in open source you cannot do that because it's yeah fair

[01:56:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It is healthy relationship both parties. Yeah trust each other more and

[01:56:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[01:56:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, John, I think we need to end up soon the the thing when is your next podcast?

[01:56:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It is in 10 minutes, but I have to recharge

[01:56:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I will ask you two three questions and we're done. They're very short one

[01:57:04] [SPEAKER_00]: First first one is do you have a quote you'll really like about like being entrepreneurs or something like that quote

[01:57:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[01:57:13] [SPEAKER_01]: That's

[01:57:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a difficult question. I don't like quotes

[01:57:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Generally, but it can be something you repeat yourself not like famous one. I don't like famous quotes, but I have my

[01:57:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I like the one I actually mention

[01:57:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a quote, but it's an advice I mentioned often

[01:57:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you should

[01:57:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Love the journey not the outcome the distinction. Yeah

[01:57:37] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good one

[01:57:38] [SPEAKER_01]: because

[01:57:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot control the outcome

[01:57:42] [SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of things against you

[01:57:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And nothing is guaranteed

[01:57:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And also even if you reach your goal

[01:57:51] [SPEAKER_01]: There is high chance you will be very sad right after because you will be

[01:57:56] [SPEAKER_01]: No

[01:57:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Empty like it happened. What's next and I know people

[01:58:01] [SPEAKER_01]: There I know people who exited who sold their companies for good money

[01:58:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And never ever found themselves again until this day. I know people like that

[01:58:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That's why you should enjoy the journey

[01:58:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you enjoy the journey, you're always happy. You don't have to

[01:58:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like don't postpone your happiness into the future be happy now because things are happening

[01:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: All right

[01:58:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, thank you for that one. I believe it's very useful for people and I need to be remembered all the time

[01:58:32] [SPEAKER_00]: The next one is a question for me

[01:58:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Or who is the next person I should invite after you in this podcast a question

[01:58:40] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to talk about about philosophy

[01:58:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I think yeah

[01:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Dagoburt would be cool because

[01:58:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I have a partner with him today. Yeah, we're going to talk about philosophy too. So he's

[01:58:52] [SPEAKER_01]: He has a lot of opinions like all french people have a lot of opinions. They are not shy on saying something that's

[01:58:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Not mainstream. I'd like them for that and I think they are very successful because of that

[01:59:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So I would recommend him

[01:59:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I think okay

[01:59:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks. I

[01:59:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I never did the podcast with him. I was planning to have one but I think he was at the time he stopped what he was doing

[01:59:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So we can sell it but I could ask him again

[01:59:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I like he's back and it's back like very authentic on the way he wants. It's super nice

[01:59:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[01:59:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, last question. That's for you where we send people who are interested into knowing more about you

[01:59:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, uh, what's the best place? Twitter twitter. Um

[01:59:35] [SPEAKER_01]: That's my house that that's my co-working space. I enter twitter every morning

[01:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh and every night

[01:59:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I answer every single dm. I don't know if there are more people who answer dms than me on twitter

[01:59:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I answered over 1000 people this year. Wow

[01:59:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's nobody I ghosted nobody like

[01:59:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Incidents. Yeah, exactly. I answered everyone I answer like

[02:00:02] [SPEAKER_01]: 80 or 100 people a day

[02:00:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like it. I just like talking to people and you know giving them advice or answering their questions or whatever like

[02:00:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Any question? So basically if people need any help they can reach out to me and I'm sometimes busy

[02:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But I always answer and if I'm busy, I say I'm busy today. I will answer you tomorrow. So

[02:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, reach out to me on twitter

[02:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Perfect that lead me to my next next thing because now we don't know if the question is like

[02:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: finishing line and so often what I would come on to people is if you like the podcast, if you enjoy it

[02:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very nice to tell us because like that's what we're saying the whole

[02:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast basically like feeling we are really useful. It's super important. So

[02:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Feel free to send you send us a thanks send us a question anything a remark

[02:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: How we can improve it as well. It can be nice

[02:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And so to my twitter or the twitter of john and thank you for listening

[02:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for being there john and see you soon. I believe in another podcast

[02:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and for the listeners you next week. Bye. Bye. Bye everyone